Mindy: Welcome to an exclusive editor featured podcast here on Writer, Writer Pants on Fire. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. Today's editor guest is my own editor, Ben Rosenthal of Katherine Tegen books where he is a senior editor. Ben acquires mostly middle grade and YA fiction with select nonfiction graphic novels and picture books. He's worked with such award winning authors and illustrators as myself, Tiffany D. Jackson, Elliot Schrefer, Armand Baltazar and Frank Morrison. Prior to joining Katherine Tegen, Ben was an acquisitions editor at Enslow publishers where he edited nonfiction and middle grade fiction and created a teen fiction imprint, Scarlet Voyage. 

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Mindy: We're gonna start with the basics - what you like working with. I know obviously middle grade and YA but talk a little bit about what kinds of projects you really enjoy working with, and anything in particular that you're looking for at the moment or you would like to see more of.

Ben: I think about this a lot because I feel like my list as a whole is very eclectic because I have pretty wide ranging taste. I'm always worried if people feel like I'm too scatterbrained. For middle grade, I tend to like more fantastical adventures, epic stories where there are big worlds and sweeping adventures. My middle grade list is more fun basically, whereas my YA list is more fun in a different kind of way. And YA, it tends to be a lot more contemporary, dealing with some very serious ideas and distinct perspectives. I really like giving teens books that they can really sink their teeth into and explore, both individual ideas like things that affect the human condition, but then things that are talking about society as a whole. 

I'm really looking for distinct point of views. People of color, people from marginalized backgrounds where their stories haven't been told as often or as certainly as often as we need. I was thinking about this yesterday because I had an author in my office, Justin Reynolds whose book is coming out next year. And he was talking about his book, which is this YA novel that's kind of like Before I Fall meets Everything, Everything. It's like a time loop romance, which is sort of different I guess from my YA list. But it's amazing. It's about these two black characters. One of the things he was talking about how he really wanted to show a black family and just have it be about these kids. Race always informs the character's point of view. So they're black characters, but it's just a love story. I really like what he had to say about that. What I'm looking for now? I have no idea, frankly.

Mindy: It’s okay that way you're open, right?

Ben: I feel totally full. I am kind of open because I need to be head over heels in love with something to even really feel like I can take it on. I'm having a hard time nailing down exactly what it is I'd like to see because I - in addition to having a full list - I feel like I have a lot of different things. I have graphic novels. I have non fiction. I have a picture books, biographies. I'm just looking for something with a really strong voice that can either make me laugh or make me interested. 

Mindy: I realize that agents may not approach you with things they know you don't want. But what is something that you have seen too much of or something that just turns you off why

Ben: Fantasy? I mean, I don't read it, so that's part of it. It's something we publish a lot of at Harper and we publish a lot of it very successfully. I just feel like we already have a lot of really great editors who are seeking it out and publishing it really well, and a lot of brilliant authors. If I found something I was enamored with, it's not like I would eliminate it, but I don't need to add that to our list because we're already doing it really well. It's a really crowded area. There's a lot of it partially because there's a demand, clearly. Although recently I was having lunch with an agent and I said you know, what would be kind of cool is I’d love, like a really funny YA fantasy. I always feel like YA fantasies are so dark and heavy and don't tend to be funny. I don't know, I just think that that would be kind of refreshing.

Mindy: Like The Princess Bride. 

Ben: Yeah, like I feel like that would be pretty cool. 

Mindy: It's the hardest thing to do, right?

Ben: Yeah, it is hard. I mean you do it pretty well. But yeah, it's hard. It is not easy and it's funny too because even people who I'd say are actually good at it often still don't even make me audibly laugh a lot. It’s definitely always something I look for because as you're saying, it is so rare. I have a YA coming out in August called Heretics Anonymous, that's really funny and made me audibly laugh. I'm excited about that. I mean it's tough. Absolutely.

Mindy: Well, humor depends so much on delivery, facial cues and body language and you don't have that. You just have the text that you're putting in front of your reader. And I think that's a huge challenge for writers and I think specifically when that is your niche, you know, it doesn't matter what's going on in your life personally, if you are expected to deliver humor. you better be funny. 

Ben: Especially consistent humor, too. It's like some people can get a couple of good jokes in a book. Minor characters provide some comedic relief, but like to make a book consistently funny, chapter by chapter. It's really difficult. The book I mentioned is Heretics Anonymous, Katie Henry, she's a playwright. She starts her manuscripts with dialogue and her dialogue is just incredible. You know, not that you need to be a playwright to be funny obviously, but it's certainly it's helped her because her comedic timing is just really good. The dialogue feels very natural. I mean with film or tv, like how many truly funny shows or movies are there? Truly funny, where you like, laugh out loud. That's just a hard thing to do. 

Mindy: I will say Barry on HBO. 

Ben: I haven't watched it yet. 

Mindy: Extraordinarily funny. Brooklyn 99 is funny.

Ben: That is funny. Yeah, that's a good one. And with reading too, which is why it's even harder. Like if you watch a show or if you go to a movie and other people laugh, you laugh more. When I've gone to a comedy show I laughed more even if the jokes aren't as funny. It's just something about other people laughing that really helps. But when you're reading you're by yourself. So it has to be really funny for you to laugh because otherwise I don't know you just you don't do it. 

Mindy: It has to be completely spontaneous. It's difficult. If I laugh when I'm alone in a room. I'm just like, oh I just did that.

Ben: It feels weird. It's like, wait shouldn't have done that. What's happening here?

Mindy: I brought some social mores. Make note, Ben likes funny stuff.

Ben: I do. 

Mindy: In order to write humor, you actually have to be funny and not many people are actually funny.

Ben: It can't be forced. There's got to be some kind of organic quality to it where it doesn't feel like I'm trying to make you laugh on purpose. I'm just making you laugh because I happen to be funny. 

Mindy: I think a lot of people have a misconception of an editor's role. I'm often asked, especially by aspiring writers, if my editor ever makes me change things with my books. So can you talk a little bit about what an editor does with the manuscript and how they work with the author?

Ben: It's different from author to author, depending on the style the author wants to work in. When I'm writing an edit letter to an author, what I'm trying to do is ask as many questions as possible, because one of the reasons I'm doing that is because I'm trying to figure it out myself, too. And so my goal is to kind of look for the areas where I feel like we want to work on something, whether it be like this character is not quite working or there's a plot hole or it's not a strong enough through line. Pose questions to help both of us think about it. I do make some suggestions, but I'm very comfortable with an author being like no - I mean you certainly said no to me on many occasions. Sometimes we'll go back and forth because I really think something's important. 

But ultimately, like, I want the author to feel they've come to the decision on their own to do this or not do this because it's that person's book. I want to try to get it to be as best as it can be, as obviously the author does, but there comes a point where they need to be happy with what the words say and what the story is doing. So I always feel like that's my job is to try to get us and the author to really dig as deep as possible into the story, into the characters, into the plot and make sure we're answering all the questions that we want the story to answer. When a reader reads something, obviously they want to be entertained. But a lot of it is they end up thinking and reflecting about something and if something doesn't make sense, then that's always annoying. I write edit letters that way. Oftentimes after I send an edit letter, like we either set up a call to talk about it or just go back and forth on email. So I like to think of it as a dialogue because obviously there are many ways to do something, but it can be the most effective way to do this. I never make anyone change anything. 

Mindy: Right. Right. Well, and I think that's a huge misconception because I hear that a lot. I mean often when I am doing events, at libraries or if I'm at a festival and I'm doing a panel so many times I’m asked - Have you ever had to change anything that your editor made you change that you wish you hadn't changed? And there's this assumption that that has in fact happened and they want to hear that story and I'm like, no. I was like, if anything I buck my editor all the time and it's just like, that's how it works. It's very much a collaboration. I think they have the concept of the buck stopping with the editor and I'm sure that there probably are some editors that operate that way, but I can't imagine that they would be terribly successful. 

Ben: I mean, I don't know the closest thing you ever get to, like for me where I make someone change some things, I just feel really strongly about it. I'm going to present the argument for why. I think this will be a problem if we don't make this change. Usually we come to some kind of agreement about why the change should be made. But I wouldn't say that's making anyone do anything. If I can present a clear argument for why something should be some way and we agree to changing it, hat's a collaborative process. If I'm imposing my will on the book, I feel like that's just a dangerous game.

Mindy: Agreed. And I also think with my experience with you and with Sarah and with Ari my other editors that I've had has always been that if the editor sees something most of the time, honestly, the editors are right. And the author is too personally invested in a scene or a twist or a character quirk or whatever the case may be and they're just not seeing the issues or why it's a problem. Most of the time, my experience has been that the editors will say this isn't working, this is why I believe it's not working. And then they offer a solution. Usually I reject their solution, but I come up with my own and we parry back and forth until we have a solution that wasn't necessarily mine, it wasn't necessarily yours. But the initial issue of - this wasn't working for me - most of the time, I'll come around to seeing it. Not always, but a lot of the time and usually we come to a fix that is a result of mutual brainstorming. 

Ben: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's all, that's the goal is to make sure you can get to a place where the change feels very organic to what you wanted it to be. Sometimes it isn't what the editor suggests and it isn't exactly what you suggest, but it's something in the middle, somewhere on the spectrum of whatever that change is going to be. I think that works pretty well. Trust is such a big part of it. The more you can get on the same page as author and editor, usually the better you can work together.

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Mindy: Now as a former librarian, people often told me they were jealous of my job because I got to sit around and read all day, which was totally not the case. I'm sure that you do a lot of reading as part of your job, but it's only a single element. I know often you tell me that you read on the train to and from work. So what is your day like at the office? How much reading is actually done at the office? Take us through the day of an editor, basically.

Ben: I don't get to do a lot of reading at work. The morning is usually spent reading submissions on my phone because I get motion sick. So I have found that my phone is actually the best way to combat that on the train. The day, obviously it depends. There's usually some like amalgamation of meetings and emails, which is a lot of the day, frankly. You know, meetings with design to talk about covers or meetings with marketing, meetings with publicity. Think of it as kind of like a film director because you're at the center of everything and you're communicating. Like we talk to everyone. So we talk to management, the copy editors, we talk to production, we talk to design, we talk to marketing, publicity, sales. Within the company we’re the center of the project. You kind of need to be aware of every moving piece so that we can communicate that to the author. And so that the author can communicate that to us. I mean a huge part of the job is communication, verbal or written. I spend so much of my day talking to people. Probably it’s not what you'd imagine for an editor because it seems kind of like a sit at your desk, reclusive kind of job, I guess. And certainly there are parts of it like that. But it is amazing how much you spend your time talking or writing to people. 

Mindy: Lots of take home, I'd imagine then. 

Ben: So most of the editing I do is either in the evenings, on the weekends or I work from home one day a week and that is a very important day for me. 

Mindy: I’ll be writing while I'm traveling. I'll be promoting one book and writing another and people will say, how do you do that? How can you work like that when you're on the road and you're constantly moving? This is actually the best time for me to work because I have no other duties. Like, I can turn on the outside persona where I go and I'm doing the promotion. But I don't have to clean a house, I don't have to make any food, I don't have to mow a yard. Everything is taken care of for me. I can literally pick up a phone and have food brought to me. I'm being waited on hand and foot like in a hotel. This is the perfect time to write, when I'm on an airplane for 4-6 hours. People aren't talking to each other. This is the perfect time to write, this is the perfect time to get it done. For me, when I'm traveling, I actually find that to be some of my most productive times because I don't have other demands on my time other than email. Emails always. I mean, I answer email for 2, 2.5 hours every day, so I can imagine that yours is even worse. 

Ben: Yeah,it's a lot, it's a lot of email. One of the things I've been doing the last few months is when I do work at home, I get up at my normal time and I get to this coffee shop in our town by like, 6:30 and by 9:30 I feel like I've done a full day's work because it's just so rare to get, like, three hours totally uninterrupted. And I leave feeling like I've conquered the world because I found much I've accomplished in such a short amount of time. I was never a believer in like, people who went to coffee shops to work always felt kind of like, performative to me. But now I'm taking that back because it has really worked.

Mindy: One time in my life, I worked in a coffee shop. I was on the road and I was with a fellow author. I was with Liz Coley and she always works in coffee shops and we had three hours downtime in between appearances and we were already out of our hotel. We checked out. She's like, well, we'll just find a coffee shop inside. I was like, oh God. And then I'm like, yeah, ok, sure. I got my coffee and my little doughnut or whatever, and we sat down and by God, I kicked out a short story. 

Ben: Yeah, this works. That's why you should never judge anything until you've done it. 

Mindy: No, I've learned my lesson. People outside of publishing are always surprised when I tell them it takes 18 months to two years for a book to go from contracts to publication. They are just shocked. They're like, well, isn't it finished? And I'm just like oh, you don't understand. So what's the lifetime of a manuscript like from when it crosses your desk to publication day? 

Ben: The acquisition process at Harper, is pretty formal. When I get a submission that I love. I'll just send it to my boss, Katherine Tegen. And assuming she likes it, I bring it to an acquisitions meeting and that's where different people from the heads of the various departments are there and they've reviewed the material and we have a conversation about it. And depending on what the situation is, If I end up getting the book, it could be like a long time before you actually work on it, because you're balancing your own list. You're balancing the list at large. Well, we think about our own imprint list, and then we think about the Harper Children's list as a whole. Other kinds of factors you might think about for a book, like, if you're doing a series that would really have great Halloween promotion, like All right, well then it has to be on this particular season. Yeah, it could be three or 4 or 5 months before you actually sit down to edit the book. 

You know, the editorial process is a couple of months, sometimes three months, it depends how much work needs to be done. But that's just the back and forth we were talking about already. And then once a manuscript is done, you submit it to copy editing, there's the copy editing stage. And all while this is happening, like while we're working on it, having the cover designed and talking about that. You launch the book which is like this big meeting where editors get to present their titles to the whole division. The author gets to review the first past pages. Kind of get your last look at the designed interior. The book is proofread and marketing and publicity are working on their plans and you have galleys made and those get sent out and yeah, it's a long road. There's a lot that goes into it. Sales, they go on their sales calls. 

I mean that's part of the reason there is so much lead time is that sales needs time to sell into the stores. I believe publishing is still a little bit too slow. It feels like we could be a little bit quicker than we are now because it is such an old business. It still functions in a lot of ways, the way it used to and there's something kind of nice about that. But there's also something a bit frustrating about it because change is good. Even if it's hard. I'd say two years is a long time to go from contract to publication. But there are a lot of necessary steps that help get a traditionally published book into the right hands. And the way we're currently set up requires a lot of time.

Mindy: How many people would you say ballpark are involved in an individual title and the promotion of it from the editor down to the sales team?

Ben: It's a good question. I mean it's a lot. Editor, copy editor, managing editor, production editor, designer. And then often our design team is fantastic. And they usually find outside artists a lot of times, it's outside artists that they work with. You have potentially one or two or three design people, one marketing director. But usually they're helped by their whole team. You have a publicist. The sales is a team because you have your independent bookstore sales reps and they're kind of region by region. And then you've got B&N sales rep and your Amazon sales rep, and your Books A million sales rep, and your Follet, Ingram Baker and Taylor sales rep. And then you've got school library marketing and so yeah, there's a lot of hands on your book at various times. One of the reasons it does take so long is because we take a lot of care in making sure we publish the best possible book or product because so much goes into it. We want the art to look right, we want obviously the story to work, right? And it takes a lot of time.

Mindy: I think it's worth it as a writer. I actually enjoy, in some ways, that length of time because by the time my book is out, I am somewhat emotionally recovered from the book, if that makes sense. I'm no longer emotionally attached to it. It's not my brand new baby. It's got its own legs now. It can go walk itself out into the world. So I'm able to read reviews, professional reviews and I'm able to process things like that a little differently then when it's very, very fresh to you. It's like a wound in a lot of ways. Got to close a little bit. 

Ben: I kind of agree with that because sometimes when the book comes out, if I'm at a an event and I hear the author reading it or, I don't know, if I happen to just look at it myself. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that part! I have to like, almost dig in again and it's kind of nice too because it's just like, oh man, this! I forgot about this, this is pretty awesome! This is exciting. 

Mindy: Absolutely. I feel the same way. Well, you know, I wrote the bulk of A Madness So Discreet, very fast in like three weeks. And I picked it up one time at a conference where I was on a panel and it was a big panel. There were like 10 or 12 people on the panel. So it would take a long time for things to come back around to me and I happen to have Madness in my lap. So I just kind of opened it and I was looking at it and I would read something, like that's pretty good, you know? And just be kind of taken aback and be like, oh, I completely forget writing that. I forgot that that happens. It's kind of fun to rediscover something that you yourself wrote. 

Ben: And there's a kind of fatigue when you work on something for so long. You're so deep into it, trying to make it as good as it can be. It's hard. It's hard work. Obviously, if you don't love the work, you probably wouldn't do it. But just because you love something doesn't mean it isn't hard. So it's that distance is helpful because it can kind of reignite the joy, allow you to take some pleasure in it. I mean, that's even hard still. Like it's hard sometimes to not be like, oh, we should have done that.

Mindy: I don't do readings very often because of the fact that I'll open up one of my books and I'll find a section and I'll start reading it. And most of the time I'm actually editing it as I read it, people would not be able to follow along because I'm changing words, I'm dropping things, I'm skipping paragraphs. Like why did I leave that paragraph in there? That's dumb. You know? And so people, aspiring writers ask me all the time, how do you know when a book is finished and it's like it's never finished. I could read a finished book of mine right now, I'd find things to change. 

Ben: I know. Yeah. It's affected the way I read in general. Like I was having this conversation just the other day with Katherine and another editor at Harper, talking about how reading for pleasure has become a challenge. I've had that really, had fallen into that plight. Especially I like to read middle grade and UA because obviously I like it, that's why I work on it. But also because I like to just see what other people are doing and read those books for fun. But also just to get a sense of, you know why it's working or why people love it so much when I read it, I can't help but kind of evaluate it. That's just annoying. I'm getting really annoyed with myself doing that because it's like I just want to read this for enjoyment's sake and kind of having a hard time I can't anymore.

Mindy: I actually had the same conversation with Adriann when I talked with her because I have that experience as a writer. Adriann has that experience from the point of view of an agent because she'll be reading something and she said she'll even think I wouldn't have sold it to that house, I would have taken it to this house. I think that editor would have done a better job. As a writer when I'm reading it, I'll catch echoes, that's my big thing. I'll be like, you just use that word, why are you using that word again? You're better than that, you know? And then always, just dialogue. I'm pulling apart dialogue. I'm assessing. I'm looking at pacing, I'm not just reading the book. A book has to be extraordinary to actually transport me at this point because I am no longer just a reader and it is a very frustrating thing because this is one of my hobbies, this is something that I do for fun. This is a huge element of who I am and it has been contaminated in some ways by work.

Ben: You know, It's so true, so true. One of our editorial assistants, she's a big comics and graphic novel fan and I acquired a graphic novel like a year ago or something. And I've read them a lot as a kid, I read comics a lot as a kid. I had been away from them for a long time and I I really like them and I read them sporadically. But it was fun. I actually really got to read this because I want to really kind of understand the craft of graphic novel. She was like, well you should read Saga. I think it's incredible. It's pretty high sci fi fantasy which isn't necessarily my thing, but it's hilarious. Like it's really funny. 

Mindy: I found myself watching more tv than reading because it's not a medium I can really pick apart because I don't know anything about It.

Ben: I think too, I just get fatigued from reading in general. I do it so much for work that when I get home. I mean there are times where I really do want to read a book, there's something I'm excited to read. But I'm usually so tired that I'll read like 10 pages and I’m done.

Mindy: I actually get migraines now. I'm at this point in my life. Well I started getting them in college because I had to read so much but I just get eyestrain and I get migraines from reading too much. And that's one of the reasons why whenever I'm asked for a blurb I always ask for an ARC or a bound galley instead of an e book because when I am scrolling and I'm tracking with my eyes and I've got the backlight, I'll go to migraine within an hour if I'm not super careful. Even the paper white and all the things that Kindle has tried to do to make it better for your eyes, I can't do it. 

Ben: And because I read on my phone and the print is pretty small. I don't really like to read on my Kindle either when I read at home, it's always a book. 

Mindy: What about audio books? Have you tried audio for pleasure? 

Ben: I used to do that a lot actually, I found that I did not realize I had stopped paying attention and so I would have to either go back or just be like, all right, well, I missed something. Hopefully it won't be a big enough deal for me to know what's going on. So, I had an Audible account for a while. You know, I did enjoy it, but it felt like a chore. It became a chore to me because like, all right, well, I gotta listen to this book in a month because then I get my next credit. Do I want a long book because then I have to really make sure I listen to the whole thing and if I do a short book, is that really worth the credit then? And I don't know, it became annoying. I really like podcasts and that's much easier. So I cancelled my account. I mean, I like audio books and the media might kind of be enjoyable but I wanted it to be an enjoyable experience. So once it started feeling like a chore was like, yeah, this doesn't work for me. 

Mindy: I will say the one thing with audio books that happens to me is that I will, you're talking about zoning out if I'm on a plane, I'll fall asleep. When I'm driving, obviously I can't fall asleep, but when I am on a plane I will fall asleep and I will wake up and one time I don't remember what book I was listening to, but I had fallen asleep and I woke up and I looked at my phone and I had been asleep for about half an hour and I didn't really miss anything and I was like, oh this pacing is pretty off.

Ben: You’re judging it again, right?

Mindy: It’s hard to still be able to participate in a hobby that you enjoy when it's your job as well. So yeah ups and downs of truly loving your job. I guess. 

Ben: I was listening to Jerrod Carmichael, the comedian, he was asked what comedians do you like? or  what are you watching? And he was saying, nothing really. He wasn't saying like there's no one funny, similar to the kind of what we're talking about, like that's not what he gets his enjoyment out of. He's evaluating it and I feel like any time you're really immersed in something so deeply and it's the work you do and it's not just the work you do, but it's your passion. Like you really care about it, you really want what you're making to mean something. Mean something to kids to really have an impact on them. It becomes such a big part of your life that doing that thing for pleasure, obviously it's going to become a little bit more difficult because you're just so immersed so you can't just turn off that part of your brain and be like, no, no, no, this is - remember, this is for fun right now.

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.