Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

Ad: This week's episode of Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire is brought to you by The Old Timey Crimey podcast - because the good old days weren't always so good. True Crime from 1950 and before With Scott, Amber and Christy. Tune in to The Old Timey Crimey podcast if you want to know more about John Dillinger, New York City rioting over Shakespeare, the possibility of interdimensional werewolves, or the still unidentified victims found in Vermont over 85 years ago. Old Timey Crimey features true crime with an historical twist. With over 100 full length episodes available now, as well as bonus mini-episodes, tune in to The Old Timey Crimey podcast - because the good old days weren't always so good. 

Ad: Join critically acclaimed author Erin Bowman this February for Plotting with Revelations, a three unit online workshop that can be completed at your own pace. Using essay lessons, examples from modern fiction, video, FAQ’s and downloadable worksheets, Erin will show you how to utilize revelations - impactful ah ha moments that your hero experiences - to reverse engineer their arc and create a roadmap for their emotional journey. Planning and executing a well crafted character arc doesn't have to be a struggle. Register at E.M. Bowman dot com forward slash workshops by February 7th and use this podcast special coupon code WRITERFIRE to save $100 off the workshop price. That's E M. Bowman B O W M A N dot com forward slash workshops. Don't forget to use coupon code WRITERFIRE to get $100 off. 

Mindy: We're here with Eliza Jane Brazier who is here to talk about her debut novel If I Disappear, which has all kinds of different elements that interest me, first of all being true crime and podcasts, and then also para social relationships. Which are especially interesting in today's world. So why don't we just start off with you telling us a little bit about the book.

Eliza: It is a story of this woman who is like a true crime podcast fan, right? And she's kind of like adrift like in her life. Like she sort of doesn't feel like she has a place where she belongs, like things kind of aren't working out for her. But she kind of finds comfort in this podcast, and she sort of feels like this sort of connection to the host. You know, she sort of feels like a friendship. She also, I think, really admires her. So when the host goes missing, she decides to take it upon herself to go and look for this host, and she's going to use all the information and everything she's learned from listening to podcasts to figure out this mystery. So she ends up like diving into this - the host lived in this like really rural location in Northern California, which is based on a real place, and she kind of goes in undercover in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by kind of creepy, suspicious people, to try to solve this mystery and, of course, thrills ensue. 

Mindy: Wonderful. One of the things that I've talked with thriller authors before on the podcast, and it's been a topic of conversation just among friends before, as well, is the heavily female readership, listenership, viewership, for true crime material. It is a heavily female consumer content area. There's a lot of different theories about why that is. My own is that I feel like one reason we do This is just the age old adage of Know your enemy. The more we know, the better we can protect ourselves or be more aware. That's my theory about why we do this, combined with the idea of why we always look at a car crash. Deep down, what's going on there is, you're thinking, Oh, that's not me. And you have a sense of relief. 

Eliza: Yeah, no, I think going along with what you say, and I think you'll probably agree, like women are much more likely to be victims of violent crimes or to have experienced trauma. So I think in a way it could be like a safe space to address that and to feel less alone, like for me. Personally, I actually got into true crime, and this is like gonna be different in probably specifics, but I don't think necessarily in feeling. I got into true crime after my husband died, my husband's death was actually like an unlawful killing. Like I spent almost a year of watching Dateline's because there's nowhere, when you go through trauma or things like that, there's really nowhere for you to talk about it. People don't want it, obviously to hear about it. They think it's, you know, sort of depressing and scary. That is like a place and a community where you actually can, like, talk about that stuff. So in a way, it helps you to feel less alone. 

Then I also think that, you know, there's an element of seeking control, like if I'm listening to a podcast, I know the bad things coming. Whereas in real life it catches you off guard. So you feel like you're preparing yourself. And then I think that there is one other element that, like came in for me a little later when I started to get into actually true crime podcasts like My Favorite Murder or like Crime Junkie, I actually started to go to like, live events, and that's when I first sort of experienced the community that surrounds true crime. 

And I think that, you know, that's obviously something that's come up in the last 5 to 10 years and very much from My Favorite Murder from Karen and Georgia and from who they are as people. They're funny. They're smart. They talk very honestly and openly about mental health. Because of that, that community reflects that. So you go to these live events and they're like, joyful, they’re warm. They're open. Like I went to one with my mom and we because it was like, sold out, we couldn't sit together. So we both were sitting in like different parts of the auditorium. Both of us talked to our seat mates, made immediate friends with them. You know what I mean? That doesn't happen, like if I go to a concert. So I think a huge part of it is that community, and it's really down to the women, the women who built that community surrounding that, you know, because otherwise I don't think it would be having this huge moment. 

Mindy: My novels deal with darker material, and as someone that even as a young child, it's like I was always interested in the macabre, and things that were darker. People didn't necessarily want to talk about or encourage me to be interested in. And also, I think there's still a little bit of that taboo, if you're female, should you really even be interested in this? It makes me wonder if there's a big push back there where we're like No, this happens to us? So, yeah, we're interested. 

Eliza: I was similar when I was younger than I was drawn towards, like dark, dark stories, like when I was younger. My earliest stories are like probably some of my darkest to me. To not be interested or not be looking at it would be to sort of ignore and marginalize something that should be addressed. It's like what we all experience, like as human beings, is the fear that we're gonna die, You know? It would be to me like putting on blinders and living in like La La Land, like it's not the real world. It's important to address that and like, try to, I guess, make it feel not as scary.

Ad: The WriterWrong Podcast is a chapter based fiction serial that invites the audience to participate in the craft of storytelling. With a focus on original tales of the unexpected, host Patrick Emile presents biweekly installments of exciting audio plays, leads spirited discussion with a bullpen of diverse co-hosts, and ultimately offers two prompts of plot continuation. Listeners can vote online for what they feel is the strongest choice. Interactive and intense, you'll be hooked as the fiction unspools and intrigued by the commentary that provides a glance inside the writing process. Visit WriterWrong podcast dot com. 

Mindy: So you touched a little bit on how speaking about conventions and going to events where true crime or themes like that are the topic. And you talked about the immediacy of having these friends where you could just meet someone. And it is true. Like everyone there has this shared interest, and it is very easy to have conversations, and to have things pop up. I know just from attending so many writers conventions as a speaker, but then also as an attendee, over the years, you know, you could just turn to the person next to you and say so what do you write? And you have an immediate conversation. So speaking of like those relationships in a very real and flesh and bone, face to face interactions, moving that then into the Parasocial relationships which so many of us have. Why don't you talk a little bit about that? And how that idea plays so deeply into the plot? 

Eliza: I mean, so this is, like, an interesting thing. Because, like whenever I wrote this book, I didn't know what a Parasocial relationship was. I've never heard the term. So my publicist reached out. Oh, you know, you could write about or talk about Parasocial relations. I was like, Yeah, for sure. And then I, like, quickly looked it up. So what it is, is it's like the relationship between, like, a celebrity or like a public person, I guess, And their audience, right? So, for example, like you and your listeners, right? So you talk to them, you tell them things about yourself, sometimes even personal things, and they feel like they know you like you’re friends. But you, in many cases, don't know anything about them. So it's kind of a one sided relationship. 

With this book, that relationship is at the center of the novel. So Sarah, the protagonist, has this relationship that's very intense with Rachel, who is the missing woman. She sort of feels that she knows her. And I think it was kind of like an interesting thing to explore, because I guess, like in those relationships, who are you actually seeing? I think I know you. But I've never met you. Am I projecting myself onto you? Is It really a reflection of the self? So I think it's either I'm projecting my own self and my own feelings onto you, or I am projecting the person that I need, the friend that I need to have. 

So I think that, like for Sarah, there's times when it's both of those things. There's times when she looks at Rachel and sees herself like, she's thinks, well, what if I disappeared? would anyone look for me? Because she feels like no one cares about her. So when Rachel disappears and it seems like no one cares, she has this intense personal connection to that kind of feeling and she's like, I'm going to be the person that cares. 

And then there's other times I think when she sees Rachel as the person that she wants to be like, as somebody who maybe doesn't care about fitting in the sort of social norms that Sarah feels pressure to conform to. But then, I think also, if you look at like any relationship, they're all a little para social because you don't really know anybody. Like, as we true crime fans know, you really don't know anyone. 

Mindy: It's really fascinating, because I know, for example, I wear so many different hats in my life. And I've told people before. You know Mindy McGinnis, the author, that you come see, that speaks and interacts, like she has a certain way. When I am Mindy McGinnis, author I've changed. When I drive somewhere- when we used to do public events - you know, I would take that drive and of course I'm alone in the car and the very essence of your true self alone in the car, you know, for however long the drive lasts like, you know, I could be in the car for like, three or four hours And then get to where I'm going and I'll just sit there for a second. It's like, all right, you gotta switch like you gotta flip into Mindy McGinnis, writer.

Eliza: You have to be, like, more confident. That's like the hard thing I think about for at least to me about, like, doing like, public events. Is that like, normally I'm, like, not confident. And you don't want to start like sitting there like spiraling in front of people. 

Mindy: You gotta walk in there confident. I agree. And I'll give myself a little pep talk. Sometimes I just roll like the first, like eight or 12 bars of the Indiana Jones theme in my head.

Eliza: Like Eye of the Tiger, yeah. You're just just running in there, man. 

Mindy: I remember when I was younger and I would have crushes, you know, when I was like, junior high, early high school and I would have crushes on movie stars. This would have been like the nineties. And I had the biggest, just most irresponsible crush on Christian Slater. We were getting married, and that was that. You know what I mean? 

Eliza: I'm like the same, man, but I like, kind of took it one step further because when I was younger, you know, I lived in Southern California, and then I also like, would go to a lot of concerts, so I would go to like, concerts. And think this is my community. These are my people. I’d find a way to sneak backstage to meet these people. Pretend I didn't know who they were because I was like, That's the only way they're gonna be friends with me. That's how I met my late husband through, like showing up at some concert and being like, I don't know who you guys are, But we're all gonna be friends. I know we are! 

Mindy: Here in Ohio we don’t really have access to any famous people. If Christian Slater was on like the Tonight Show or Good Morning America, I would not miss it. And I would tape it like on my VCR. I felt like I knew this man because he would sit and talk to, you know, Jay Leno or whoever. I know everything about him. And he told the story about getting a root canal. And he likes to play Nintendo. I can still tell you his birthday because it was just grounded into my head. It's like, super fucking weird. I don't know. Now, as an adult, it's like-  you have no idea who that man was.

Eliza: That's the thing too, I guess, like the continuation of my story, like when I would actually meet these people, like I would be wildly disappointed. Funny when you're a kid, I think it's so much easier to believe that you do kind of know them. And then you realize you're like Okay, No, that's like a presentation. 

Mindy: I substitute in the local school district. I worked there as a librarian for 14 years, and now I substitute because I'm able to write full time, but with COVID, they're just dying for help. So I substitute and I'll cover anything from fifth grade to seniors. So I have a professional teacher substitute Mindy that has to have even, different sections inside of that. Like the substitute that walks into fifth grade is very different from the one that walks into a room full of seniors. I definitely compartmentalize my personality and I'm not, like, really famous, so I can't imagine being very famous and how, you know, the decisions that you make about what you share and what you keep for yourself.

Eliza: Image and stuff are very like controlled in a way too, like a product you're selling. So sometimes it's like it's very different from what is the reality.

Mindy: My ex, he told me once, because he came with me to one of my events and we were together for like, 12 years. But he came with me to one of my events one time, and he's like, It was weird for me because it wasn't even like you up there anymore. He's like, You were different. You were a completely different person. And I’m like Well, yeah, that's because you get the real me, you know? And he's like, I’m not sure I like, author you.

Eliza: Good thing he’s an ex. I'm doing an event tonight with another author who's actually like my sister in law, and I was thinking I was like, This is gonna be weird. Am I being author Eliza? I don't think I have as clear maybe of a distinction as somebody like yourself who's been in the game for a long time. 

Mindy: I actually did an event. This was funny. My sister is an English teacher at the high school, and I did an event where they took different English classes from different schools in the area. I was doing my presentation and I was Author Self, which my sister and my co workers had actually never seen before. And there was a kid in the audience who had the same last name as we do, my sister and I. And we had, through the course of, like moving through local sports and stuff like that, his name would come up and I'm really interested in geneaology. And she is, too. And so we were always like, Oh my gosh, are we related to this kid? And we would talk to each other about it and he was in the audience and we didn't know it. And I'm doing my thing, and I'm being, you know, author Mindy. And then I'm taking questions and this kid raises his hand, and he's like, Hey, we have the same last name and I just stopped hardcore, like hit a brick wall, pointed at him and looked at my sister and went, RIGHT THERE! RIGHT THERE! And everybody else was just like What the fuck is going on? We're just making faces at each other and no one knows what's going on. And I'm like, Sorry, guys. 

Eliza: That was a personal moment. I couldn't control myself.

Mindy: Let's talk about, you mentioned Northern California and the fact that you chose to set this in a very rural area. I always write rurally because that's how I live and how I grew up. And very often I have people that are, like, excited to read something that isn't set in the suburbs or in the big city. So how much of the rural setting tied into just plot necessity for you?

Eliza: I'd been living in England for like 10 years, and I was married and then my husband died. I moved back to America and I got a job at, like, a dude ranch in northern California. A  lot of that is like, pulled from reality. Like I went to this place and I was thinking, you know, I'm gonna have this magical healing summer, like working with horses. It's gonna be like this, you know, idyllic like paradise and I got there and like, right away, I was like, Oh, this is not what I expected. It's like the kind of place, especially in California, like you don't think that it really exists anymore, like it's so inaccessible. And there's so few people and the people that are there have been there for usually a long time and also usually they're kind of there for a reason, like they don't want to be around other people. 

So it was just like this really intense setting, like a psychological experiment because, like when somebody would get paranoid or scared like it would escalate so much and people would tell these scary stories, I only lasted there for six weeks before it literally got to the point where, like, someone crossed the line and I was like, Okay, I actually have to leave because this is literally dangerous. I took, like all of those kinds of feelings from that very unique intense experience and put that into the book. So I definitely pulled from my actual experiences in that place. But then I, you know, I populated the world with fictional characters.

Mindy: My friends and the publishing world, you know most of them live in, if not directly in big cities, they live in, um, at least the suburbs. And a couple of times when my friends that are writers have come to visit me or stay with me, they have just been like Oh my God, because I mean, it's not as rural as Northern California or a desert setting. But, you know, my nearest neighbor is a mile away. It’s how I grew up, it's what I'm used to. To me, there's nothing weird about it, but one of my good friends that came to stay with me a few years ago. She grew up in Miami, and then she lived in Chicago and I picked her up at the airport and, you know, we were just chatting and driving out of the city. And when we get off the freeway and she's like, Oh, man, you really do live in the middle of nowhere And I was like, Dude, this road has paint on it like this is still the city to me. So it's like we get out where I live And she was like, Alright, I'm sorry, I don't want to sound stupid. Like, how do you know where you're going? She's like, there's no street light. I can't see any signs. And I'm like, Dude, I know where I'm going because I live here. Nobody is here that doesn’t live here. And then being outside, she practically ran into the house. And I'm like, Dude, what's up? She's like, it's so dark.

Eliza: Yeah, it's scary to be surrounded by all this, like space. Yeah, if you're not used to it, You know what I mean? Like, you just feel like you start to feel like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so small in the world is so big and I'm really scared. 

Mindy: That's how I feel when I go into the city. Tying into that idea of isolation - Do you think that this book is going to tap into some pandemic experiences? 

Eliza: I don't know. That's like an interesting thing that I obviously would never have anticipated. But I do think like, for example, when we talked about Parasocial relationships, I'd certainly have more podcasts and bloggers that I listen to now than I ever did before. Especially in the very early stages of locked down, um, in Atlanta when it was like, Oh, my gosh, the world's ending. And like, I didn't have my puppy yet that I would like to listen to their like vlogs like they're, you know, mundane updates every day of life, like - I got coffee. I, like, looked out my window and listened, like I am invested in those people and I will forever like, associate them with this whole thing. And I always, like, want well for them, even though I am one of, like, you know, 50,000 people who watch their show. So I definitely think that maybe people will, like, get it more than they might have otherwise. 

Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find the book If I Disappear, and where they can find you online?

Eliza: So I think the book is in bookstores, um, I Hope. Which I know are hard to get to right now. But there's Barnes and Nobles, like Amazon. I I think it's always great to like, check with your indies. And then online Twitter, Instagram and yeah, like, reach out and say Hi, man, because I love to talk to people. That's like a really fun part, is being able to like, I guess open up your community and expand your horizons. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.