Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We’re here with Ian Dawson, author of Midnight House, which released earlier this year. And part of what makes this such an interesting topic is that the story is based upon your own experience of being kidnapped when you were younger by two older teen boys. So if you would like to talk a little bit about that traumatic experience and how it ended up coming to a place where it became a novel. 

Ian: Thank you for having me on. Actually, Midnight House is the second book, the first book, The Field, which came out in 2018, that's based on my experience of being abducted. The second one is Midnight House, the follow up. So in 1993 I was out in the field behind our Redding neighborhood playing hide and seek with a friend of mine. He was hiding. I was seeking, I turned the wrong way down a gravel road, found myself being pursued by two older boys on bikes. They caught up to me and they dragged me into a clearing, terrorized me for several hours until they finally punched me in the face and let me go. So it was a very traumatic experience. A decade after it happened, I was thinking about it as a first person account of what happened and then that slowly evolved into a fictional story that was based around the actual event. And then that became The Field. 

The woman who read and edited the first book was like, you should make this into a series. I initially had no intention of making it a series. Then I started thinking about what I could do and then I thought of some ideas for the second book and that became Midnight House and that took about five years from initial idea to completion. And then the first book took about 15. I’m hoping the third book gets a lot shorter time from idea to completion. 

That's sort of the genesis of how this series came to be. And they’re young adult novels. I mean they're intense, they're very suspenseful. My mom had to put them down a couple times while she's reading them because especially since the first one is based on true events and the second one has things that have happened to me but it's more fictional. 

Mindy: How old were you when this happened? 

Ian: I was 13.

Mindy: Things are bad enough when you're 13, to then have to endure something like that. I can't even imagine where you ended up, diving into that place in your memories and that experience in order to write The Field. I know a lot of authors find therapy through writing and not necessarily just even as directly as writing their own lived experience, but even just for a general release from the experiences of everyday stress of real life. But when you're dealing with something that is obviously extremely personal like that, I can see it maybe going either way on any given day. And you said it took 15 years for you to really coalesce this into a final product. So was it therapeutic on some days and then maybe on other days it was just reliving a horrible thing? 

Ian: It was cathartic in a lot of ways, they never caught the two guys, so they're still out there. Because it's fiction, I basically made things go the way I wanted them to go to make a more effective story. There is the kernel of truth that was spun into a fictional narrative, but there are things in the book that didn't have to do with me. I had two other characters that were very intense, I wrote them and I had to take a break because it was like, wow, I can't believe I got that dark and went to that place. But that's one of the crazy things about writing is it allows you to take yourself to those places without actually going to those places. But you can still feel all those emotions and those feelings and that intensity. And then you hope that translates from the page to when the readers are reading, they have the same feeling. 

Mindy: Absolutely. I agree entirely. My book, The Female of the Species is a rape revenge vigilante justice book and there's actually a scene where my main character sets a pedophile on fire, burns him alive. Didn't pull any punches on that scene. And I fully expected to get some push back and I didn't. I've never had anyone say to me, you know, that was too much or you went too far and I think exactly what you're saying is what's happening. You get to do this safe exploration of an action that you might wish you could take. But you know that you cannot, for many reasons, be they moral or legal. I think it's really interesting and I think it's a really good point. It also gives you an element of control when you're writing about something that specifically happened to you in your case. In my case, just anger at the world and things that happen to people in it and kicking back on fighting back in a way that is safe. 

Ian: Absolutely. And I think that's the fun part about the writing process, especially the drafting process with The Field and with Midnight House, I would take sequences as far as outrageous as I possibly wanted to. And then I was able to pull it back. So you don't have to censor yourself in the draft because no one's going to see it. So you can just go there and then maybe you read it again, you go - well as a young adult novel, so maybe I shouldn't put that in there and let me just sort of scale that back. The first book. Some of the reviews said it was a little too violent for a young adult audience, but it's like, well, there's nothing really nonviolent about child abduction and childhood trauma, which are two things that are dealt with in the first book and then the aftermath of that is dealt with in the second book as well. These are themes that really don't have a happy essence to them. 

Mindy: Yeah, I write YA too, and I pull zero punches. I worry a little bit about push back. But to be honest with you, I'm always ready for those responses. So, for example, my third book is a gothic historical thriller set in the 1890s. It's about a teenage girl who's pregnant because her father has been abusing her. And I've had some people say, you know, why would you write a book for teens about a young girl whose father is sexually abusing her? And I'm like because that's who it happens to. This is not a shock to them. And they need to see that this happens. And those who do have to live through that experience can be aware that they are not alone. This is not some freak aberration. It is not their fault. And those that are moving in the peripherals of that situation might be able to pick up some clues and be a little more aware of things that might be going on in someone else's life. 

I really have never myself as a writer, held anything back. Now, as you're saying, your first draft is no holds barred. Full send. You go for it. And then you can dial back if you think it's necessary. I definitely have had my editors say, you know, this needs to be dealt back a little bit. Usually he's right. If I have a moral ground to stand on and it's like, no, this is here for a reason. But you know, this might be a little too much description of puking. All right. You know, I'll give on that.  You choose your battles. 

Ian: I think young adult novels, especially in 2021, have more leeway themes and the content that they can express. 

Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. I was a young adult librarian and I understand the arguments from both sides because the gatekeepers, they have to worry about their jobs and parents do know their own Children better than anyone else. So if a parent says - this book is not appropriate for my child - more than likely that parent is probably right because they know their child, so I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is when a parent says - this book is not appropriate for any child.You do not know all Children, so you cannot make that claim. 

Ian: Oh yeah, like the parents groups who tried to ban Harry Potter. 

Mindy: I had a few book challenges when I was in the high school library and one of them was for Harry Potter, but it wasn't like... they hadn't actually read the book, they just heard that there was witchcraft and I said - okay, here's what I want you to do, I want you to go home and I want you to try the spells and if they work then there's a problem.I am very much against sugarcoating anything. For teens, especially older teens, they're either living it or they've already seen it or they've already done it. 

Ian: Yeah, because I think especially when you're dealing with YA novels that are based in the real world, you're dealing with real world themes. I think every young adult, you know, witnessed what happened last summer. I don't think you can sugarcoat what happened with George Floyd and that whole horrible situation. Kids are very perceptive, They know what's going on. Sometimes they know more than their parents because oftentimes, parents try to shield their kids, the kids are going to find a way around whatever. Most people, even adults, if you tell them, don't do that, they're going to go do it and say, well, what's so bad about it? 

Mindy: Yeah, I just spoke at a conference a couple of weeks ago to youth services librarians. And I don't have answers for everything. Obviously if I did, I wouldn't be a novelist, but I talked about black and white thinking and how we approach sex education of course, but also drugs and how we bring it to our Children in the school system, especially public school systems and it is very black and white. This is bad, This is good, don't have sex, don't do drugs. And when the kids start to get older, they develop some obviously very natural urges, but also just a curiosity and a desire to explore different things. And I've always thought about those quote unquote good kids that are just simply growing up and maturing and all of a sudden they're like, oh no, I'm not good anymore. I want to do this. This is a bad thing. And I think it can really damage some of our kids. And then those that are already living in a world that has alcohol abuse or drug abuse or sex abuse, they're being told this is bad. And then they're like, oh, I'm bad. 

Ian: Our war on drugs in America is very odd because if you look at films from the past, like Reefer Madness how they start to teach people. And it's like yeah, the war on drugs really didn't work because you can watch Reefer Madness now and go, I know people who smoke pot, they don’t act like raving maniacs who go out and homicidal binges, just like wait a second, who was endorsing this? 

Mindy: Yeah, like literal, actual propaganda. Like we were saying earlier, fiction is a good place to do safe exploration. You don't have to smoke or have sex or or even perform violence in order to get that, I'll use the word “satisfaction” out of experiencing it in a book. 

Ian: You have fictional characters who can make bad decisions and then you can see the consequences of their bad decisions, but no one's affected in real life. Like you said, I don't think we should shy away from reality, where in the end it's like, oh yeah, and everything's okay. No, we're not in Full House. 

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Mindy: Now I think when we talk about things that make people uncomfortable when we talk about assault. I'm an athlete. I grew up on a farm. I have been in pain. I have been injured and hurt many many times in my life. I have never had anyone hurt me on purpose. And I think from what I know, from people that have experienced that there is so much trauma involved and in your case at the age of 13, a breaking of innocence in a way, I would imagine. I don't know your background, so I don't know if this was your first experience with violence.

Ian: Yes. 

Mindy: Then, yeah, I can't even imagine what it would be like to suddenly be thrust into a situation where people are hurting you on purpose and even for their own enjoyment. 

Ian: It was surreal. The experience was surreal because you're like, is this actually happening? It's very hard. I think even as an adult, it would be a surreal experience. You have no way to know what they're gonna do next or they're gonna try next or what the plan is. So that was also very scary, is the unpredictability of the situation. You know, when I got home, the police were in our driveway and I told my parents what happened, the police didn't believe me. They pulled my dad aside and they said that maybe he's just making this up. My dad was like, he's not that type of kid. If he says this happened, this happened. There really was no follow up. I think they called my mom a couple weeks later and they're like, well, we don't know, we don't know, they may have been from out of town. You know, it sticks with you. It gives you an interesting perspective on how real police sometimes can be when it comes to something like this, not to completely denigrate the police. 

My experience with the police is that the guy who comes and sings the, you know, “just say no to drugs guy,” you know, at the school and Mcgruff, the Crime Dog, you know, “take a bite out of crime.” One of my favorite shows is Law and Order, Special victims, unit. Similar situation. I'm a victim of a crime. Olivia Benson, she would have solved this, she would have figured this out. 

Mindy: You really had the veil ripped away in a lot of different ways, Not only did you very suddenly and abruptly experience violence, but you also found out that the good guys, the people that are supposed to be there to protect you and help you and the people you've been told that you can depend on might not necessarily have you as their priority.

Ian: And that's one of the reasons why in the book Daniel, who's the main character, he's abducted. Daniel's best friend, Kyle, basically takes it upon himself to figure out what happened. So the reason it took so long to write this is because the first version involved Daniel getting abducted and then Daniel's dad and a cop near retirement, were looking for him. And it was extremely boring and uninteresting because they were boring characters. And then I had Kyle out searching for him and then that made it much more interesting and exciting. I had Kyle, Daniel's best friend, pacing at home, worried about his friend and then Daniel was being held captive, it's like, well I have two passive characters... like this isn't working, they need to be doing something. So Daniel is trying to escape and then Kyle is trying to find him, okay, now they have an active goal to pursue. So that really changed how the book was in crafting the book and then it was I was able to up the stakes. 

Mindy: That's a hard thing to learn. I know, like having any type of active characters, making sure that everybody is not passive. That's when you do have to learn over time. And you said it took you 15 years then to really put together the first draft of the first book,The Field? I think that's really interesting and I think it's a really cool way, too, kind of combat that overnight success idea that I think a lot of writers look for. It exists, I've seen it happen, but it is rare. And like I myself was trying for 10 years to get an agent before I got published. My fifth book was the one that got picked up and I think it's really useful to talk to people such as yourself who put in 15 years worth of work and I'm sure took breaks, walked away, thought about it, came back revised, redrafted, how did you keep up the feeling of this is worth it? I want to keep doing this? 

Ian: I kept coming back to it. I graduated from UC Davis By the time 2003 rolled around. I saw it on my computer and revisited it. And that's when I sort of realized this isn't very good. But the idea was there I built around it and then over time moved to L. A. And then I got my masters in screenwriting. And so I'm taking all these classes about story and character and dialogue kept going back to it. And it wasn't easy. I mean, there were times, it was just like, God, it's like - this isn't working, you know? And I'd walk away. I mean, it wasn't me consistently Every single day for 15 years going back to it. There were times and it was like, leave it for 2 to 3 months and then I'll come back to it. And there will be times when I was like, I just be bored at home and just go back to it. And then every once in a while you have the situation where things would just click OK? Yeah, I see where this is going. 

Once I gave it to a friend’s mom who was an editor and she read it, she gave me feedback and she really liked it and she gave me suggestions and notes. And so I was able to revise it from there. Novels have lots of layers to them. And sometimes it takes time for those layers to evolve and come to the surface. You could be focused on story in your first draft. And then as you go back through and you're rewriting, then your characters start to get their parts in a more clear way, and then dialogue and then description that it all sort of comes together. So, I think that's something that's important for new authors to know, is that this takes time, this isn't a one and done. Because sometimes you have to write it, walk away, come back and go, oh, I'm going to get rid of that. You have to enjoy what you're writing, even if it is something as traumatic as using a real world experience, such as mine for The Field. You have to enjoy the process. You have to enjoy the characters you're writing. If you're begrudgingly going back to your manuscript, there's a problem. You’ve got to enjoy what you're writing and you'll be doing it for the right reasons you do. You have to care about it and you have to be willing to go back to it. 

Mindy: I love what you're saying about taking those breaks. You, like you said earlier, this wasn't 15 years of you hitting your head against a brick wall. No, you can't do that. I tell people that all the time, I would take huge breaks sometimes 3,4,6 months because you cannot continually look at your own work and hate it or have other people tell you it's not good enough. In my case, I was querying agents for 10 years and you know, I just kept getting rejections rejections rejections and you can't healthfully live that way. Taking those brakes is important. 

I want to talk too, then about your publishing experience. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the route that you chose? 

Ian: When I was in the process of writing The Field, I had sent out query letters to different publishers. Most of the responses I got back were - this is not what we're looking for at this time. Back then, It was vampires and werewolves. Dystopian novels, zombies. These are the hot tickets, real world fiction really wasn't a thing at the time when I was working on this book. So I started doing research and Book Baby seemed like a good fit because I was able to find my own cover artist. I love both covers that he's done. The first book, I made the mistake of just going with an e book. That's what I started with. Then got my publicist. She was like, oh, you should probably have a paperback too, with the second book. It was cheaper to do both at once as a package, then do both separately. 

One of the reasons I went the self publishing route was I just wanted to get the book out there. That was one of the main things because you hear these stories of course, you know, Stephen King and Carrie was rejected like 87 times and he had a nail on his wall where he put all his rejection letters. And I was able to figure out a budget and that's the important thing. If you're going to do this, it is not not the cheapest way to go. But if you're able to budget and make sure that you can not go into too deep of debt and can still afford to pay your bills and your rent. Because it used to be that if you self published, that was like the scarlet letter. You know the thing - oh you self published, Oh that's not good. But it's like now, you know the book is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Walmart, Target. It's more mainstream and I think it's because YouYube and podcasting has made everybody a content creator. So self publishing is just another way of being a content creator. E books and paperbacks, they're just another avenue for creativity for people to use now. So I think it's been more legitimized over the past decade. 

People need to know if you go this route, you're not going to be on the New York Times bestseller list. That's the reality of it. Don't expect to make a bunch of money and don't expect to be on the bestseller list. But have a plan to pay yourself back. So I've been very fortunate being able to work this entire pandemic because I was able to budget, I wasn't able to do other things, I was able to squirrel money away in order to do the second book during the pandemic. 

Mindy: You don't expect to hit the bestseller list. That's true in traditional publishing as well. I have I think 12 books out, I've never hit any list, I'm certainly not rich, but I'm able to, you know, make a living at this and I supplement My and come with teaching and with substituting, doing the podcast, makes a little bit of money on the side. I do actually self publish under a pen name with two other co authors that are friends of mine and you're so right about how self publishing has changed. 

It sounds like we're about the same age and we were both entering into the publishing world right around the same time, I had the same experience yet different in some ways, I had written urban fantasy and was trying to get at that out there. And my problem was there was too much of it. These are a dime a dozen, we don't need another urban fantasy author. One day I'm going to self publish those books, but they've been under my bed for probably 15 years at this point because it just, it hasn't come back around and there are very different voice in a different genre than I write in now. So more than likely I will self publish those and self publishing like you said - It used to be, if you self publish something, it was like you were selling old meat out of the back of your van. Like people were not into that. You could not expect anything like a traditional exposure a lot of the times. People did look down their noses at that and that's just simply not sure anymore. 

I travel a lot. I go to a lot of different conferences and festivals and, I see self published authors with tables right next to traditionally published authors. People want to read what they want to read and they will be attracted to what they're attracted to. Most readers can't differentiate between a self published book and a traditionally published book. They pick it up, they look at the cover, they read the blurb on the back and they make a decision. They don't look to see who the publisher is. 

Ian: And if you're self publishing, it goes back to liking what you're writing because if you're not writing on assignment and you're doing it for yourself, you're not going to make a bunch of money and you're not gonna get the fame and fortune. You have to like what you're writing, you have to enjoy the process and enjoy what you're writing and that gets you through because it's the story that keeps you motivated. As soon as you get into the money as a motivator, I just don't think that that is an effective motivator when it comes to creativity. 

Mindy: The last thing. Why don't you let listeners know where they can find your books, The Field and Midnight House and where they can find you online. 

Ian: If you want to buy the paperback versions of either book, you can buy them on Book Baby. I have promo codes for both on my website, which is The Field YA.  Letter Y letter A (for young adult) dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at the field Y A. So you can join me there and also my website, I do blog posts. I just finished a series about story structure and I also do Writers Workshop Wednesday where I’ll profile an author and put like Youtube videos of interviews with them. 

Mindy:            Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.