Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Kathleen Basi, author of A Song For the Road. Kathleen was previously a guest on the blog and we talked a little bit about her publication journey and I'm really glad that you contacted me and asked if I had a spot open on the podcast because I started this podcast hoping to reach aspiring authors and to make sure that I'm always talking to every guest about how they got started and about their query journey and their agent hunt. But then as the podcast has gotten bigger and bigger and I've gotten authors who are further along in their career and more established, they've been writing for 20 or 30 years. So their journey would be completely unhelpful to modern writers who have email and social media and all of those things. So I'm really glad to kind of go back to my roots and talk to you about your publication journey because I know that you were querying for awhile, correct? 

Kathleen: I think I started querying probably 10, 12 years agol I mean it's a long time. It's long enough that I've birthed several Children and I have a child old enough to drive now. 

Mindy: Did you start in the world of self addressed stamped envelopes? 

Kathleen: I did not. It was always done on Query Tracker and email and things like that. So I'm not quite that old. 

Mindy: I’m just edged ahead of you, then. I started with the SASE’s and getting little cards back in the mail that just had check marks where there was a yes box and a no box. It was like dating in fourth grade. It was terrible. 

Kathleen: You know, I've been publishing music longer than I've been working with fiction and I did have to do some self addressed stamped envelopes for a while. There was one particular music publisher who really held out for a long time before going electronic and I was like AHHH! Stamps! But you know I actually have some sympathy with them for holding out that long because it's a real commitment to print the thing out, to make the envelope, to go find how much postage it's going to take, to put on the envelope and all that. I mean you have to really be committed to the process. It's a heck of a lot easier to just click attach and send an email. 

Mindy: Absolutely, I'm sure it weeded out some people who are not serious. It's a really good point because, Similar with where I began in trying to get published around 2001, If you got a request for a partial, you had to print out those papers like you're saying with music. You had to print out the 1st 30 pages, you had to put that in an envelope. You had to take that envelope to the post office and ask the postmaster to weigh it and put return postage on it. And then you had to put that envelope inside of another envelope, seal that, and ask them to run it again, and then you mail that. And I live in the middle of nowhere. They would basically be like, what are you doing? What is this? And then I end up having a conversation about being a unpublished, failed writer while I'm standing in the post office holding up the line.

Kathleen: I got to the point actually where the music publishers would say if you want your manuscript returned to you then you must blah blah blah. And I would always end up putting in the cover letter - There's no need to return the manuscript to me. Just recycle it. That at least cut out some of that having to take it in away. Then I could just give them the envelope, Just a standard business envelope to send their rejection back and cut me in the heart. 

Mindy: That was my favorite. I try to explain that to people in the new world of digital. Getting a rejection letter addressed to you in your own handwriting and how it has its own special blade. 

Kathleen: Right? 

Mindy: You said you've been writing music for a long time, which is wonderful. And I'd love to talk to you about that as well. But what made you take that turn into fiction? Just kind of walk us along that process of deciding to become a writer and then deciding to try to get published. Because those are two different things. 

Kathleen: I have written fiction since I was in the first grade. So it wasn't particularly new. My degrees are in music. I have a masters in flute performance, super useful degree. Let me tell you. 

Mindy: I have a degree in philosophy of religion, so I understand. 

Kathleen: But you know those degrees form who we are. I feel like I interact with the world in a very different way than I would have if I'd studied something else. And when I was doing my master's degree, I was five hours from home, I did not have a car, I really had nothing and during that time I was practicing my flute four hours a day in a little tiny room by myself. And my relaxation time was to go to the computer lab, because I didn't have a computer either, pull out the disk that had - I mean we're talking old school here - and pull out the disk that had my novel on it. And that was what I did for relaxation was to write books or write stories. 

I don't think I realized that I was actually writing novels until probably very shortly before I got married, which was right after my Master's degree. And at some point I intersected with how long a novel is? I wonder how long these stories that I've been writing my whole life are? And I went and looked and I went, oh, I'm writing novels! I didn't even know it, that's how completely clueless I was. And so at that point then I decided that it was time to get serious and then start figuring out how to do this for real. 

And of course at the moment when I started trying to do it for real, it suddenly was much harder because you had to stay in one point of view and there were all these rules that I didn't know and I spent a long time having to learn those rules. But I love the writing community because there's so much available online now. I've never been to in person writing conferences very much. I've never taken in person classes, but I've learned it all because it's all there, it's all available to people. 

Mindy: It is. And that's one of the things that is really beautiful about the digital age. Because once again, I remember going to Borders Books, rest in peace, and buying the writer's market guide to literary agents for that year, going through it. Ear marking things.

Kathleen: Do they even publish those anymore? 

Mindy: I doubt it. I mean it would be pointless. 

Kathleen: There was at some point when one of my writing partners actually gave me one of those and at that time even, I thought it was slightly odd because I thought - isn't all this online? But I used it for a few years for short stories.

Mindy: It's an age that has passed and in some ways, thank God. But it's interesting, like you said, having to make that effort, it really did weed out people that weren't serious about querying agents. Because you had to go, you had to buy the book, you had to keep track of everything, You had to mail everything yourself, you had to put postage, paper, ink, all of that into it. Yeah, it was frustrating and it was really bogged down and it was obviously an archaic system, but it did separate the wheat from the chaff right from the start.

Kathleen: I actually feel kind of bad for literary agents now because it's so easy. Even those who have like a submission form and everything. I mean, they must just get completely inundated. It's hardly a surprise that it's a long response time for most of us and no response equals no, or no response means I haven't gotten to it yet. And just - this is a crazy making business.

Mindy: It is, it really is. What made you decide - Yeah, I have a novel and I want to try to not only just be a writer, but to be a published author? What made you do that and what were the steps that you took? 

Kathleen: I think that I set out to do it because as a musician and writing music, it's not just given to me for my own enjoyment, particularly with music. It's lovely to do something for yourself. But where it really becomes meaningful is when you start to interact with an audience and that public performance where you start to get feedback is what makes it all really, really meaningful to me. You don't have that with fiction in quite the same way, like once in a while you get to read to your audience, but it's not like performing music. 

But even so, there's that sense that it was not given to me, to be written for me to hoard and hide my head under the blanket and read for my own use. It was given to me to go out and do something in the world and to touch people and to interact with people. To me, it wasn't even a question of, oh, do I want to get published or not? Of course I did. Absolutely, I did. 

And I knew also that I did not want to self publish as I started to learn because I knew that I would suck at self publishing. I mean, that's just not, it is not my charisma. I knew that some venue of traditional was what I wanted to do. And so I never gave up on the literary agents and in the blog post that I wrote for you, I talked about how, you know, the first one had these problems, and so I'm like, all right, I'm going to fix that for the next time. But then there's another problem with the second one, and there's like a plateau and a climb and a plateau and a climb. 

With music, there are times when everything seems really easy in playing, and you're on a plateau. You've reached a new level and you're able to sit and enjoy it for a minute, but then you see something else up there that you want to reach for, and so you start climbing again and it's hard again. And that's how I felt and still feel about writing, is that it's a constant pursuit of greater excellence, greater attention to detail and all of those things enhance the ability to connect with readers in the long run. 

Mindy: I love the analogy. I also played piano for about 10 years when I was younger and I think it was some of the most character building moments and experiences of my life. I've tried to explain to people for example, I have a book coming out with James Patterson in November. We co authored a book together. He would call me, we would have phone conversations about the project. People would be like, do you get nervous when James Patterson calls you? And I would say no because I did Guild in piano, right? 

And it's like if you aren't in music you don't understand. But it's like you, I always did the max for my age level, I did 10 pieces. And so it was like you had to memorize 10 pieces and you walked into a room and it's just you, the piano and three judges. You sit down and you play 10 songs from memory. They ask you to play certain scales or whatever and you don't know what they're going to ask. And you got to be ready from ages seven to like 18, I played piano, and so as a child to walk into that, it just prepared me for so much in life in so many ways. You know, it prepared me to be in the spotlight. It prepared me to have everything riding on you. It prepared me for challenges. It prepared me for critique.

Kathleen: You have to have the sheer dedication. Are you a natural memorizer or was that a struggle for you? 

Mindy: I assume it's muscle memory. 

Kathleen: Yeah. So you're a natural memorizer and that helps, but Simply the process of having to prepare all of that music. I mean you can't do that in 10 days. 

Mindy: No.

Kathleen: I mean it's a long process. 10 pieces. That's a lot of music. 

Mindy: Yeah,it is. And people don't usually use the word like steeliness or grit with musicians, but you're gonna have some balls to go do that. 

Kathleen: You do. It's actually a lot like being a writer, there's a sheer ego involved in the idea that something inside of me is inherently worthy to be heard by other people or to be read by other people. There's like there's an ego involved in that. But we also have to be humble. I think it's weird because we hate ourselves and we hate our writing and we get all dramatic about it a lot of times. So there's like this constant push and pull between the ego and the self loathing.

Mindy: The ego and the id. It's true. Self loathing is absolutely right. People ask me all the time if I read my own books and the answer is no, because it's published now. It's out there, it's a solid thing. And if I were to read it… when I do readings in public, I tell them if they have a copy of the book to follow along because I'm going to change it. I'm editing it as I read and I'm changing things on the fly because I would do things differently now. 

Kathleen: Reading them out loud doesn't work the way that it does when you're reading it.

Mindy: I offer editing services and I tell people that sometimes I'll highlight a sentence and I'll be like, this is a good sentence and you've done a good job here, but I want you to read it out loud. I'm making this up - but if it would be like the howling ouroboros, you know, it's just you know, you don't want anyone trying to read that. Think of the audio book, man!

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Mindy: So once you went out on your query journey with your fiction, you had been through this process of rejection before in the music industry. So you were prepared in a lot of ways. But was there a different feeling? Was there a different flavor to having your music rejected and to having your writing rejected? 

Kathleen: I write two different kinds of music and one of them is just sort of instrumental incidental music kind of thing. The rest of the music that I write is for use in Christian worship. It's a very specific thing. So when I would get a rejection most of the time, I was not surprised because I could see like I was really immersed in the stuff and I could see why, like how, how crowded it was. There's only so many things that a congregation can learn to sing. So they are very cautious about publishing more. I guess what I'm trying to say is there's like a one step of remove there and with the fiction, it went straight to the heart of who I am and the message that I want and the legacy that I want to leave in the world. 

It's odd for me to say that now, because my music is intensely, intensely personal and I spend much more time crafting texts now than I ever did when I got my first publications in the musical world. Even so, there's something about the fiction that I guess I would have to say it's probably because there are conventions and they're like, when you're working within a very slim niche like that, the texts have to fit within certain parameters. And so there's a Stravinsky quote that I always say - the greater the limitation, the greater the art. 

And so that's how I look at music. And then fiction frees me. In fiction, I got to say everything that there wasn't room to say. Certain words just can't be sung. Well, they just don't interact well with written notes on a page. And all of those words, all of those topics, when you're writing for worship, you have to sort of code things if you want to talk about, they're going to feel a little too specific and not universal enough. And all of those were available in fiction, in a sense.

Mindy: I understand what you're saying because I'm a Lutheran. So, when we're looking at music and I as a writer, I'll be looking at, especially the more modern music when we use that, the word choice and how things are being used just because I'm a writer. So I understand what you're saying, where you have to consider so many elements with the music, and also the limitations, of course, of the musical prowess of the congregation.

Kathleen: Right? 

Mindy: Yeah, I mean, that all makes a lot of sense. And you are, in some ways, have a limited vocabulary when you're especially writing for a Christian audience. 

Kathleen: And I think that's appropriate because you're trying to build a bridge. My character in A Song For the Road is a Catholic music director. And that was a very difficult line to walk, because I didn't want to write Christian fiction. You can go too far in certain directions and you end up writing something other than what you intended to write. I wanted it to be secular fiction that happened to have a character who had this background and was struggling with the loss of her family and all of those things kind of work together. But I didn't want to be aiming at that niche audience. I wanted to reach the larger audience. So there were limits to the things that could be said in this book as well. Even at that, writing fiction feels much freer, almost a blank canvas. And I truly can take this anywhere that I feel called to do so. And that is terrifying and beautiful. It is a privilege. It's a responsibility. And when somebody rejects that, then it's different, you know, and you just have no idea when those emails, when they're going to come in. 

Mindy: Talking about that blank canvas, people ask me, when you do interviews, do panels or blog, or podcast, people will ask - what are you afraid of? That's a question that comes up often like an icebreaker question. And my answer is File > New Document. 

Kathleen: Yes!

Mindy: That is what I am afraid of. 

Kathleen: Oh my gosh, I hate the drafting process. I have so many people who are like - outlining! Oh, no! I’m a panster! and I'm like, if I pants, I will hit a brick wall and I will have absolutely no idea where I'm going, I have to outline it and I'm gonna hit a brick wall anyway and I'm going to have to stop and go wait a minute - this is not working. Let's redo the outline. But I've got to know where I'm going. 

Mindy: I have a general idea of where I'm going most of the time, but I tend to let things be a little bit more organic. My process scares like a lot of my friends that are also writers. when I talk about my process, they get like, hives. And they always say, how can you do that? And how does that even work? And I'm like, I don't know, but I don't look at it too hard because it does work and I don't want to break it.

Kathleen: And I think that's important. We have to recognize that everybody's process is different. We're all wired differently. I have a child who has down syndrome and so in the world of disability there's a lot of overlap. I've spent a lot of time interacting with people in the autism community. And there's that discussion of just, we're wired differently and I've realized that it's not just about disability versus typically neurotypical people. Neurotypical people are all wired differently, too. like truly neurodiversity is a wondrous thing. 

Mindy: One of the things that I tell people, especially as a writing coach, everyone is the way they are for a reason, right? And it's true. I hold to that. If you're going to accept that this is true for you and this is true for your sister and your brother and your mom and your dad, you have to accept that this is also true for like, a serial killer. It's going to make you uncomfortable, but you have to think about that. And when I'm doing writing coaching and we're talking about villains or unlikable characters or characters a little little more difficult to crack and too much. Everyone is the way they are for a reason. Figure out what that reason is. Why is this person this way? And it's a really good tool to help you understand your characters when you're writing fiction.

Kathleen: I've used a lot of Lisa Kron's work in the last few years with that question of why is the character this way? is one that is foremost in my mind all the time. Now, I'm actually in the process of trying to brainstorm a major revision of a book that didn't really get its fair shake at querying, because A Song For the Road came up, and it was clear to me that that one was closer to ready. It had everything that was necessary. It had the plot hook and the emotional hook. So, the book before that, I kind of set aside and really focused my efforts on getting this one published. And now I'm going back to that other novel and Looking at it with more objective eyes, because it's now been like, six years.

Mindy: That really helps 

Kathleen: And having had my agents look at it and they gave me like a paragraph - here's what I see in this. And I'm like, oh, okay, so I reread it and I'm like, oh yeah, I see that too. Okay, now, how do I fix it? And it's a big rewrite. That question of why people are the way they are is the journey I'm just embarking upon again. 

Mindy: It’s a crowbar that you can just wedge in to figure someone out, I think. Only apply this in fiction. If you do it in real life, uh - don’t put crowbars in people's brains. Nobody likes that.

Kathleen: But it does help to think of people. I mean -

Mindy: It's an empathy builder. 

Kathleen: Yes. Yes, that's exactly where I was going. I feel like fiction is an empathy builder. Writing fiction and reading fiction, we can get inside people's heads and understand them in a way that we are unable to make ourselves that vulnerable in real life. Sometimes I am really struggling with the questions of why are people the way they are and how are they? I think fiction has a great deal to offer us in this time, in this place in history. 

Mindy: Absolutely. And when you practice this as a writer, you do practice it in real life as well. I'm by no means like some type of yogi but After having been writing full time for 10 years, my patience and my empathy and my understanding has just grown by leaps and bounds. I don't think I was ever like a very truly judgmental person. I mean maybe when I was a teenager because I was a teenager, but I tend to be kind of brusque. I can be like I have things to do, I need to get them done. The way that I describe myself is that I tell people I'm not nice, I'm kind. There's a difference, being kind goes deeper. Being nice is superficial and I don't have time for that. I don't have time to pretend like I like you. 

When it comes to practicing that empathy… being a writer and asking myself the hard questions about the characters that I'm writing, because I don't always write likeable characters has definitely helped me to kind of move and function in the world a little more smoothly with a little less irritation and anger because I can just be like, okay, I mean they believe this or they think this or they did this why? And can I find common ground somewhere? But I can at least understand the thought process that got you here. I don't like where you are, but if I can figure out how you got there somewhere along the way there’s a step, then I can look at and say let's turn this right here a little differently. 

Kathleen: And see I'm trying to reach that point. I do tend to be a little more judgey, I have to admit.

Mindy: Well, like I said, I'm no Yogi. I just yesterday  got out of the car, I hit my head on the car getting out of the car and it made me really angry. So I turned around and I punched the car. So I make myself sound really zen. But the truth is that I hit a Ford Flex yesterday and it hurt my hand and that was stupid. 

Last thing, why don't you let people know where they can find you online and then also where they can find your book A Song For the Road. 

Kathleen: A Song For the Road is available at all your online retailers. I know that it's on the shelves in Barnes and Noble and I know that it's on the shelves at quite a few indie bookstores and of course all of the other places that you would expect. You can find me at my website Kathleen Basi dot com. That's spelled K A T H L E E N B A S I So Kathleen basi dot com. And that has links to my music too. If you're interested in that, I'm on Facebook under Kathleen M. Basi, and I'm on Instagram and I don't spend much time on Twitter. I'm a Twitter failure, I will say. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.