Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest. If you have specific questions feel free to post them on the page and I will answer them on the podcast.

This summer I'm adding a co-host, fellow author Kate Karyus Quinn. We'll be doing a series that focuses on hybrid and indie authors. If you're thinking of going the Self Pub route we've got authors who found success with six figure sales, as well as authors who are just starting out on the road to indie publishing. Learn from them. Learn with us.

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Mindy:            Kurt, first of all, Don’t Get Caught, your debut, come out with Sourcebooks. I think one of the first things I really want to talk about is the fact that you write humor, which can be a particularly difficult genre to market and to put out there. So can you talk a little bit about what it's like to write humorous YA and what that market is like? 

Kurt:                I don't know what that market is. I just know it's all I can write. Even if I'm writing a serious email to someone, I slide into this humorous thing. It's just kind of what comes naturally. I wrote horror. Horror, not whore.

Mindy:             I’ve written whore, too, Kurt.

Kurt:                I wrote horror for you know, three or 45 years when I was kind of learning to write. I've really struggled with it because I... it took me a long time to realize it's just not who I am, you know, I just naturally want to be funny, I guess. were

Kate:                Were you like the class clown in school?

Kurt:                I was just really sarcastic and biting, but that voice is always there. And, you know, I've toned that down, but I guess the humor elements still exists.

Kate:                Are you sarcastic to your Children? 

Kurt:                Yes, and my students. And they'll say, I don't know whether to believe you right now. And I’m like, Excellent. That's exactly where I want you. I don’t want you comfortable. You know, I wrote a failed YA horror psychological cult novel that all these agents read it and some partials and fulls, but didn’t want any part of it. Yeah, I'm just trying to be something I'm not. So it was like I'm just gonna kind of write in my own voice.

Kate:                But you got agents to read your horror novel. So you must have had something there that they were seeing potential. 

Kurt:                What I had was a really, really good query letter. I learned a lot of rules about YA that I didn't know existed. One being you really need more than one teenage character in it. After Don't Get Caught got picked up by my agent. She was like, Well, let me see the other one. But she goes, Yeah, that's terrible, that novel’s terrible. We're not going to submit that. And thank you for being the one to Tell me flat out.

Mindy:             Let’s say that you had luck with horror. That would be extremely difficult, cause I feel like once you’re horror writer, you're gonna be that. So if you were like, yeah, I have this great horror novel and let's say it gets published and does fairly well or even just mediocre. It’d be really hard to make the jump then and be like... and I also write humor, right? 

Kurt:                You asked about the market for humor and in publishing The Scam List, I've had to look at that and there aren't a lot of books out there and even looking like at Amazon ads and categories like I'm like, Yeah, I don't even know where to put this book. There aren't a lot of them out there. And then I get irritated when you know I start doing like so what's the number one Humor YA book, and it's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Yes, JK Rowlings did you really need to, like, try to corner that market too?

Kate:                Harry Potter, I think is the top book in every category, and Amazon is like it's about pipe fitting. Oh, Number one book is Harry Potter. 

Kurt:                I look at the books and there aren't a lot out there, but I write it anyway because it's kind of what comes natural for me, and I also know that it's not that there's an audience begging for it. But when people have the book, like When I can get the book in people's hands, they’re like that was a lot of fun and really funny. And then people will call it like a palate cleanser And I'm like, That's fine for me. 

Mindy:             I've been hearing a lot of people talk about, especially now, with the world kind of exploding or imploding. Everything is just so negative right now, has been for a while. I've heard multiple people, readers saying, but also editors and people in the publishing world saying Now is the time we need lighter reads. We need funnier stuff, the dark stuff like obviously I write very issue driven and darker, gritty edges and stuff like that. Like right now, that's the real world. And I think people are looking for more escapism of the moment.

Kate:                I agree. I also I wonder if the lack of having a big category for comedic YA is just that there hasn't been one big breakout book because I know there is an audience for that. My kids are middle grade. My oldest is 13 so he started to edge into YA. But they love funny books. There's a ton of it in middle grade, and there is almost none of it in young adult like it's not like when you reach 13, you don't want funny books anymore, so I really think it's a missing chunk of the market. We have a need for this, but until a book breaks out, no one's really gonna buy a ton of it, right?

Kurt:                Right. It's always just been kind of my complaint. I think they would do really well if publishers would push them. I get it. Lots of teenagers and lots of teenagers who read specifically like they want serious books and issue driven books. And there's a huge need for that in a lot of ways. And it's a great way to address a lot of things that are going on in the world and in teenager’s lives. That's not all their lives are. I think a big part of being a teenager is just doing stupid things with your friends and being around and having inane conversations and goofing on each other. And there is a need for that sort of thing. 

Kate:                And I feel like there's probably reluctant readers out there who are like I don't want to read the serious issue book.

Mindy:             I can say, because I was still working the library when Kurt’s first book came out, which, I should say is called Don't Get Caught and it's all about a prank war. It’s hilarious, and I would put it in the hands very often of boys and reluctant readers and sometimes the mix of both of those things. And it always worked really well as a good light, fun read that they could read and be like That was cool and I enjoyed it.

I want to talk a little bit about your experience with Don't Get Caught because you did have some success with it out of the gate. I mean, it got attention in some ways, like we're saying, just because it was a funny book and we had, kind of like Kate is saying there hasn't been a book that was like this one. This one's funny. This is the funny book this year. Gordon Korman, You can always rely on to write a good, funny YA. But he had kind of fallen off, like in recent years, as far as like producing a book a year in that category, age category. So anyway, I was using Don't Get Caught in that way. Now, if you could talk a little bit about what your trajectory was, after Don't Get Caught came out. And what led you, then to move to the idea of publishing it yourself?

Kurt:                I got an agent for pretty quickly, and then in what year was that? God, I guess it would have been 2015 because it came out in 2016. 

Mindy:             I think that sounds right 

Kurt:                All the editors who read it they were like, I really love this. We're gonna pass. 

Kate:                I’ve been there. 

Kurt:                And then Sourcebooks came along, and the editor there just really liked that. She was like, Thank God I'm reading a funny YA novel. I worked with Aubrey Pool at Sourcebooks. They were really behind the book and the book came out, and it did well. The book has continued just to sell, but I think I've sold in the last four years like 20,000 copies of that book.

Kate:                That’s a lot. 

Mindy:             For anyone who doesn't know that's a lot of books.

Kate:                That is amazing.

Kurt:                I'm like 20,000 people have bought some you know, book I wrote that's just really filled with Dick jokes, right? I finished that. That was done, and I want to write another one. Like I know these people. I know where I can take another book of it. Kerry Sparks, my agent, we contact them about me writing a sequel, and they came back and they're like, Well, we want to see how this book is selling.

Kate:                That’s infuriating. 

Kurt:                I understood it, but at the same time I was like, You now want me to wait a year to write another book? Like that didn't make a lot of sense to me, But I also understood, you know, No, it's all about money. Like that ends up being the answer to every publishing question. I was like, Well, I'm not going to sit around for a year. What else do I want to do? Well, I want to write a teen detective novel. Because, really, that's what I read. I read crime novels and detective novels and stuff. And then I started working on... I don't even know what it was. At the time I had characters, I had Boone and Darby, and I had them not liking each other, really, but liking each other like I had a whole Moonlighting David and Maddie from, you know, the eighties.

Kate:                I love that show. You are speaking my language. 

Kurt:                I started messing with it, and it was, Ah, it was a detective novel or a mystery thing, but the problem was, I didn't have a mystery for it. I had settings, I had a relationships, conversations. I had all of that stuff. But I didn't have a plot that I liked. 

Kate:                I am not a big mystery reader, but I do find when I pick up a mystery that I do want there to be a mystery in it.

Kurt:                Right. That's a problem. You read a YA novel, you do expect there to be more than one teenager. So right around that time is when Mindy tried to murder me. 

Kate:                I know that sounds super like Mindy.

Mindy:             It’s very on brand. And of course, Kurt, I want you to share the story. But I was almost the last person that Kurt spoke to on this planet. 

Kurt:                Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you tried. Okay, here's what happened. I somehow tricked my way into being the Cincinnati Public Library systems writer in residence in, like, 2017. And as part of that job, I would do, um, a podcast, much like this. One Sunday, three and a half years ago, I interviewed Mindy. That evening, I ended up in the emergency room with a mystery illness that pretty much laid me up for like three years. 

Kate:                Three years? 

Kurt:                Yeah, it was just this bizarre. It was procedures and surgeries and everything. And I wasn't quote unquote normal until... this is really odd. I think today is the anniversary of the final “now you're back to normal.” I drove up to Cleveland Clinic today four years ago for my final procedure. Um, and now here I am. I'm tempting fate again, Talking to Mindy on a podcast. At that time, Like I could barely write. Part of it was just PTSD in a lot of ways. Part of it just being in the hospital. Part of it was all the meds I was on, and depression I was dealing with and the anxiety.

Kate:                And I think a lot of people you know, right now with the pandemic and stuff can relate to that. Like, it's very hard to write and be creative when your life is an upheaval.

Kurt:                And I had no idea. Like I had never been sick in my life. And I had no concept of just how important your health is and mental health. And it gives me such a greater empathy for my students. You know, when they're like I’m dealing with a lot of anxiety, I fully understand what you're talking about. But somehow in that time, at some point I decided I'm not gonna... Why am I making this a detective novel? I don't have a mystery for it. I'm going to make them conmen. That's what I'm going to do. He's gonna be a con artist. And then the book just came out really easily. I sent it to my agent and she was thrilled with it. She was like, Oh, this is ready to go. Sent it out. And it was like, one after the other. All the publishers were like, We love this. This isn't for Me. I knew from Like my past history, like sales history. People want books like this. Kerry was like, I don't know what the problem is. She was like, I am just as shocked as you are that no one wants this in Sourcebooks. That really just irritated me. I've sold 20, you know, 20,000 copies of this little book.

Kate:                I’m surprised too, ‘cause I've generally heard good things about Sourcebooks and them being very supportive of their authors. So you must have really pissed someone off. 

Kurt:                My editor left.  And I think that--

Kate:                Ah. Well, yes, you were orphaned. Well, that's the whole story, right there. 

Mindy:             For my listeners, if you don't know you have your editor in your house. And generally your editor is your best cheerleader. Your editor is going to in some ways almost acts as your representative within that higher echelon of the publishing house. And if your editor,

Kate:                Because they picked your manuscript. 

Mindy:             Yeah, they pulled you out of the slush pile. They hung their own hat on you and your success. And editors leave houses all the time. Editors hop houses pretty consistently and what happens usually they’re authors are then left behind at the house without an editor, and they're called orphans. And you just kind of get farmed out. You’re farmed off to someone that has room on their list, And that person, you know, might not like what you write now, or might not be into you and your style and yeah, I mean, it's a really, really well known story in the publishing industry. 

Kurt:                Orphaned is the way you put that, because when other writers who were there found out who I had been given to--and this person's gone so it doesn't even matter--they were like, Oh, that's not gonna work. And I'm like, Why? They were like, that editor does not really have a sense of humor. 

Kate:                So this is a bad match. 

Kurt:                My agent texted her and said or emailed her and said, I want to talk to you on the phone about this book. 

Kate:                Were you hopeful?

Kurt:                No, no. He said, I want to explain myself. I can do it better just over the phone and got on the phone. He goes, I love this book. He goes, I would buy this book in a minute. I will buy this book for my kids. I would hand it out and tell everyone to read this book, but this is not a book that a kid would read 10 or 12 times, and that's what we want. Honestly, that was kind of a big wake up moment for me, and I was like, If that's the bar, I can never clear that bar. I don't read the book that a kid holds to his or her heart, you know, in 40 years down their line. They're like, I love, love, love. You know this. And you know, it's not like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn or whatever those books are. 

Kate:                Nobody knows what book is going to strike a chord with what kid. That's bullshit, man. My 13 year old loves Stuart Gibbs, reread all of his books. I’m always asking, What do you like about the books? And they're always like fast plotting. And they like funny. 

Mindy:             Yes, and Middle grade has a plethora of authors that only write humor. Or have you know there's a huge market for that in middle grade. And then you hit YA it really is just a black hole. Those kids didn't stop liking that. The products simply aren't there, and I do. It's a shame, but I also do think marketing comes into it. I really think that publishers don't know how to market YA humor, what to sell it, to know specifically to an older audience. So it's like for middle grade kids -they're like fart jokes! Here's a guy in a diaper, right? And that is that's funny. But like Kurt's book is full of dick jokes and they're hilarious. But they cannot be like, Hey, guys, Dick Joke Book! Right?

Kate:                So target, the people who watch, um, what's it called American Vandal? Is that what is called on Netflix? 

Mindy:             But how do you produce something that, like a commercial? It says Dick jokes - Now In Books, right? mean, that's... though any type of reference like that. It's already dated. I mean, I bet a handful of people with this right now already Googled American Vandal, like, What the hell is that? And now they're like, Oh, this looks funny. Five minutes ago on Netflix is a Flash in the pan, and I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a good marketing strategy. I think it's a great marketing strategy. I just think publishers... Netflix doesn't have to worry about being banned. Netflix doesn't have to worry about backlash from librarians and parents.

Kate:                You know, being banned would be awesome. You’ve said many times like, Oh, please ban me. I get it. Like I think, honestly, the problem is marketing people are underpaid and overworked and they don't have, You know, the resources to look for a new avenue to open up. Its not like publishers are evil, big jerks. But this is definitely one of the places publishing fails to service a specific audience. And I've heard the same thing about, you know, there's more of the need for YA that skews younger and that's not there. 

Kurt:                It goes to money, right? Like the marketing thing the marketing people are like. We know what we can sell that will sell, and we know how to sell those books. Why work really hard to find how to sell it? If it’s, you know, something we don't normally put out there. 

Mindy:             They already have a template on how to make something be successful. Why remake the wheel? They don't have to for a single book for one book for one guy. 

Kurt:                Once that happened and we ran out of people, I was just sitting there. I mean, it took me a couple months. I was like, What am I going to write now? If people like it, but they don't want to try to sell it. What am I gonna possibly write? You have a book that you know is good. That's kind of what push me into self-publishing. And I got to that point because, like you said, it was like, I know I have readers who want me to put something else out.

Like First, I think, was a combination of things. One was I wasn't sick anymore. And my head had cleared somewhere in there. I listen to like, to self help books, and I think that was a combination of it. And I had to get past this ingrained prejudice, you know, self published books, or indie, books are crap. I just started researching, researching, researching, you know, indie publishing. I was like, Okay, what would this project look like? I contacted my agent, and I was like, I've kind of come to a big decision. And I told her and she was like, This is a great idea. She's like, you should. Absolutely. The book needs to be out there. It will sell. I work well with projects, and this was a new project for me to work on. 

Kate:                Right cause now you had to learn how to be a publisher, not a writer, but the publisher in the marketing department and the cover designer, right? 

Kurt:                And I mean and it was a great project and it was really good for me. But like one of the positives of COVID because suddenly March hits and you know, I'm not at school every single day. I'm at home, so I have plenty of time to work on this stuff. That's suddenly how I ended up self-publishing.

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Mindy:             You knew that you had the product. So the writing part was done. You had to learn everything else more or less so. Like, how did you go about doing that? How did you go about learning basically everything there is to know and all the different things that you have to do in order to have, like, success at this? 

Kurt:                I'm very good at researching stuff. I can go right down rabbit holes as they say, and then not come up for a long time. I asked both of you a lot of questions. I ended up on the Facebook. What is it? 20booksto50k and I would just I'd be like, my writing time today. All of my reading time today I'm just going to read posts like I'm just going to read and read and read.

Kate:                And such a great resource.

Kurt:                It's a fantastic resource, and it's got great rules. You're not allowed to advertise your book, so it ends up being about the industry. 

Kate:                And it's very selling focused in a way that's very straightforward. How to make money selling your books. There are a lot of people on there who are making a very good living. 

Kurt:                And they're more than willing to explain to you how they did it. Yeah, and it's one of those things where I think the publishing industry could learn so much from what some of those people do. It just kind of all started coming together. But I felt like I had, you know, 10 or 15 plates up in the air, and I was like, Oh, my God, will I ever possibly going to make this happen? It was a great process. I learned. I've learned a lot of things. I made a few mistakes, the book’s out there and now I've got to kind of learn this other world of Amazon ads, and I'm gonna have to like, you know, people are always like, How is the book selling? And well, before I never knew. Right? With Sourcebooks, I had to wait six months. Now I know which is a positive and a negative.

Kate:                So now you have to tell those people mind your own damn business. 

Kurt:                I like being transparent on a selfish level. It makes me more comfortable with things. Yeah, when I was sick, I would be like, OK, this is what's going on with my rectum this week to people. And I was like, Yeah, I've got a hole in my rectum and no one knows why. Well, an additional hole, I suppose. I’m way more comfortable with it. With sales, it was like Now I can know everything about it. I'm gonna be transparent about within the publishing world. 

Mindy:             So how are sales going? 

Kurt:                In the first week? And this would count presales like, I think I sold 300 copies of The Scam List in like, the first week, but I was like, OK, I'm really thrilled with this. One of the things I've learned is I can't... I had to set a rule for myself a couple of like, a week and a half ago that it was - I am only going to check my sales on Fridays. The first week was like I've sold 300 copies and I felt really good. And then Friday came. This would be two days ago and I looked it up and I sold three copies last week and I went OK. This means I need to start learning to advertise like that's 20 books to 50 K thing. It's like, No, you've got to stay on top of this. I can't rely on Publishers Weekly getting librarians to buy my book, but in a way I can, because I think I've lucked into getting a Publishers Weekly review. But I went through that process and it's like cross your fingers and all of that, but I think that's gonna happen. 

Kate:                I just want to say it's not lucky. It's not like it's a draw to read your book and they decide whether they want to review it or not. If they like it and think it’s good they review it. 

Kurt:                I tend to, just like try to be as humble is possible. Of course, they're going to review it. That's in my dark heart. It's a job, but it's kind of a job I like, because again, it's a project. YALSA Teens Top 10. Don't Get Caught was on that list a few years ago. I've got to figure out how that happened because I didn't have anything to do with it. And then I just did a ton of research and found out who's in charge of that. And I'm gonna contact them. And they were like, Oh, yeah, here are the advisers running those teen reading groups and they gave me a list and I'm like, just gonna send them copies of the book, like to give to their kids. Publishing is making your own luck. I'm kind of good at going okay, if it's all on me, how far can we take this? Not everything's gonna stick, but something will hopefully.

Kate:                Are you feeling a little boxed in by the pandemic now? And there not being a lot of events where you could sell your book? 

Kurt:                I guess I'm just realistic about it. If I thought about it too much, Yeah, because I can hand sell books. I mean, if Mindy and I were sitting next to each other at a table, and we've been close to tables, like we would sell a shit ton of books because we just have those personalities.

Kate:                I hate you guys. I'm so bad at hand selling. I hate it so much, I can tell you that. I know Mindy can. I say next to Mindy at a table, and actually, we did an event... what was it? I was SEYA in Tennessee. Mindy had this long line, and I have, like one kid and a kid from Mindy's line looks over at me and he says, It's gotta be hard being next to her, huh?

Kurt:                I have no problem with this. And it's from teaching at school. Yeah, kids walking by and I'll just call them over. Be all, come here like, and I also know my people in a lot of ways, like, I know how to talk to different types of kids and that’s a lot of what it is. 

Mindy:             I think that's what works for me, too, is just I've been in front of kids for so long and interacted with all different types of kids and librarians to like I got an in with them. And so, yeah, it's all of those hours that I put in in the public school system, like finally paying off.

Kate:                So you're saying that I should get a job in high school to work on and try to sell to them? 

Mindy:             You go substitute and come back and let me know how that goes.

Kate:                I’ll call you crying. 

Mindy:             And I’ll tell you to put on your big girl panties and you go back in there. 

Kurt:                You were saying, how to talk to those kids... thinking about those those cons being or those festivals being canceled. Yeah, it does hurt in some ways because I know it works for me. It's like the one thing I know I can count on. Ohioana was like the first one I ever did and and I walked in. I was all excited and they showed me my table and there were, like, 10 books there. Do you have more books? And they're like, No, we have 10 books. And I just in the back of my head. This isn't gonna last long. And I went with the humor aspect, and I did. I sold out of those books really fast. It was like OK, well, you know, I’ll at least talk to people.

Mindy:             Same vein, then, because I know that you do have paperbacks available of The Scam List as an indie. Those 1st 300 in your debut week with that - were you selling E books? Were you selling physicals?

Kurt:                Physical books. 

Mindy:             Really?

Kurt:                Probably 75% of them are physical looks. I don't know. YA generally sells mostly paper. 

Mindy:             I mean, that's that's a question, because I know that my numbers from my trad books, I sell four times more physical copies than I do e books. However, that's where things get like a little bit gray and a little bit fuzzy in the indie world, typically in the indie world, you're moving E books, so I don't know. Kate - Any thoughts on that? Like, why would a YA humor novel be selling physical copies over an E book?

Kate:                Well, because he was marketing them to his traditional audience who want physical books. Now, I would say as he started to advertise more, he's going to want to maybe target those indie readers a little bit more, which is where you probably want to make sure your e book is priced reasonably. One of the reasons that traditional sells way more physical books is that they have made a decision, a deliberate decision, to price their e books very high, just in almost the exact same price, sometimes even higher, or maybe just a little bit lower than the paper copy. 

And so most people look and they're like, Well, if I'm gonna pay 11.99 and get either a physical book or get an e-book. So they want to push people into paper, they don't want paper to die. Obviously, traditional has access to being on the shelves at Barnes and Noble, which is huge. You know, we all know how big that is to have that order from Barnes and Noble and have them pick up however many of your books and you know, if they put it on an end shelf or if they put it on a table. With Indies not having access to Barnes and Noble like that, we sell e books and we can price them very competitively. And the traditional space has sort of ceded the bargain books to us, except for when they want to do sakes,

Kurt:                See, I think when I published my book, I was just going with Well, what was Don't Get Caught sold at? Because that's what works. But you're right. We probably do need to, like, shift my thinking on that, especially with the e book version, because it's like, yeah, if that's gonna be the target indie reading more e books. Okay, That's very, very helpful actually. 

Kate:                Yeah don’t overprice your e-book because, you're pricing like a traditional author. You're basically saying to people don't buy the e book buy the paperback. You don't want to say that to your audience. You want to buy my ebook? Look, it's a great deal, but if you prefer to read on paper, here it is. 

Kurt:                So, you've actually helped me in this podcast, whereas, whereas four years ago, Mindy tried to kill me. You guys have a partnership in a lot of ways right there. 

Kate:                Well, it's not over. Yeah, we're not done yet. I may still, I'm just maybe trying to draw you in closer, make you, you know, let your guard down so I can go in. 

Mindy:             Well, you know, I'm always looking for the next rectum to target. So you're good. You're off my radar. I completely annihilated your rectum.

So I'm wondering then, Kurt, when you do go into making ads, where you gonna put them like, are you looking at Amazon looking at Facebook? Cause I know Kate dabbles a little bit in both and, with Amazon in particular, I know it's a bear. 

Kurt:                I fooled around with Amazon ads for a little bit. I was getting clicks, but not sales. And then I think Oh, and now you have me thinking, Oh, no, this is just your e book is probably possibly priced too high. That could be it. Who knows? We're gonna learn all of that stuff. And then Amazon and again, through 20 books to 50 k, they have groups you can join on running Amazon ads. And it's the whole science that I really feel like Okay, that's gonna be my next deep dive is into all of that and marketing it. Because I when I go with authors who write things that are funny or funnier, I don't really get a lot of like clicks or impressions. Almost like people, but the reluctant readers usually gets me pretty decent return like like it clicks, and I think it's gonna be finding that sweet spot.

Kate:                Email me. Well, we'll talk more about all the ways of Amazon and Facebook, they're both extremely difficult. There is tons off writing about them and how to use them and how to bid and how to target. And there's lots of different ways to do it. And I am still learning. I think almost everyone is always still learning. I just did Amazon 30 day ad challenge. Ah, a couple of months ago through a Facebook group, and I learned from doing stuff and it’s an ongoing process. And they also, of course, are always changing things. You're...which that you have to like a just everything, you have to go with it. I do actually okay with Amazon. I've never like I know I've read a bunch of things with people saying, Oh my gosh, I poured hundreds of dollars into Amazon and, you know, seen no returns, and I've always come out ahead with my Amazon, ads. 

Kurt:                That’s huge. Holy cow.

Kate:                Well, it helps because I my books are in KU. So that helps when you're in Kindle Unlimited. So you're getting page reads and a lot of people on Amazon are looking for those Kindle Unlimited books. So that helps. And then Facebook. I think it's harder. It's much, much harder to track whether your clicks are leading to sales.

Mindy:             I know that some of your ads on Facebook, Kate. They get a lot of interaction. I don't know if they lead to sales, which, of course, is what you want to see. But they do get interaction, they get likes, they get comments. 

Kate:                I mean, I get comments. I made an ad that I've been running for maybe Oh, six months. I made a gif actually, using a program called Pixel Loop. And it like lets you animate pictures. So I used stock photography. And so I found a stock photo that was really good for Facebook. That's the way to go is to find a stock photo that sort of captures a mood or a feeling because Facebook wants people to be scrolling through the feed and not to immediately be like, Oh, this is an ad. Like I wanted to look like This is just another friend on your feed. That's why they have a thing about putting a lot of print on an ad. You can't have a lot of text on it or they'll reject it.

And so I found this one. It's like my book books are fantasy that I'm advertising, and it's about a girl who shifts into a dragon. And so I used some of my photo shopping skills and I added some like she’s got bare shoulders. And so I added some like scales like dragon-y sort of scales. And then I went, put that picture into Pixel Loop, and I animated it. So it has, like sparkle, and movements and it looked awesome. I am awesome and I'm very skilled, and I actually think it's that input thing. Where I can, like, go down a rabbit hole like I can just spend so much time on Pixel Loop. It's like playing with all the little settings and tweaking and tweaking and tweaking forever. And it's fun to me, and it's like relaxing. And so it ended up looking super pretty and I put it up as an ad and people love it. And so I tweak like my headlines and the wording around it. But the picture stays the same, but I think at first, the headline was, it wasn't immediately apparent that it was a book I was selling. 

Mindy:             You started out by saying, cause your character supposedly has, like, some sort of spinal issue. And so things like, Here all my life I thought that my scoliosis was because of whatever... And then it turns out I'm a dragon. But people, people because they don't either... there's just not like a high reading comprehension level or they only really read the first line. Because so many of the comments are like Prayers! Feel better! 

Kurt:                Oh, no.

Kate:                She’s got scales! And it's like in the GIF.

Mindy:             It's like she has dragon scales and blue hair and like is clearly not human. And everybody's like, Oh, honey, we're thinking of you.

Kate:                There's a lot like, Oh, you're so beautiful. Yeah, there's like a couple comments from one person who I think is drunk. So honestly, you're supposed to hide those comments and I just haven't because I think there are entertaining. And someone recently left another comment that was like, I did not understand half the comments. Yeah, In a perfect world, all the comments would be like, Oh, I read this book and it's amazing. Really, none of them are like that. 

Mindy:             They're like, you're really pretty and we hope you feel better. 

Kate:                I’m just like thanks for leaving a comment! The Facebook algorithms, you know, they just know I'm getting comments so They're like, Oh, people like this ad! And they show it more. 

Mindy:             Obviously what you need to do, though, now is to create, like, a Go Fund Me for this Dragon girl’s spina bifida. Everybody wants to help.

Kate:                The question is are they gonna put their wallets where their mouths are? They just gonna stay with thoughts and prayers? 

Kurt:                You know, I guess there's only one way to find out. What you could do is the people who don't understand, you should respond with -  If you really want to help me and then leave, leave another link to the book. 

Mindy:             You're right in the even if people aren't comprehending what's going on here -  They're still interacting with the ad. The ad is performing well, People are clicking on it, People are interacting with it, and that only improves the visibility level of it. Because Facebook looks at that and says, Oh, people like this right? 

Kate:                And I personally I mean, I don't see a lot of people doing the gif ads. I'll see him occasionally, but I don't see him a whole lot. And but I think they're very effective because when you're scrolling through your Facebook feed, I feel like that little bit of movement catches your eye.

Mindy:             You know, with the new thing you can do where you make your photos 3D or whatever. Have you seen that? 

Kate:                Yes, but I don't know how to that. 

Mindy:             I don't know how to do it either, but I'm just saying it’s catching your eye when I see someone, even if it's a picture of a teacher, you know, look back to my classroom in a week, Whatever. And it's just a picture of, you know, socially distanced desks because that picture shifts as I scroll, It catches my eye. So I think that you're right about the gif ads.

Kate:                Gif ads are like cats, right? Isn't that like how cats are like you can like, use a laser pointer and a cat will run after it like movement is like what catches their eye?

Mindy:             I mean, you could also just make ads with cats that have some sort of, like, respiratory issue and that, and you could you could make a video of them like trying to chase the laser and like, not able to and put your book ad in there and the Go Fund Me. Just give me money to help the cats.

Kate:                They’ll forget I’m even selling books at that point. 

Mindy:             Indoor cats with allergies. Cats Allergic to cats. They can't have any friends. And then the catch phrase is Will you be my friend? Click below. 

Kate:                Okay. If this is gonna be our con, we should probably stop talking about it.

Mindy:             Kurt, why don't you tell us where people can find you online? Your site, your social media links and where people can find The Scam List. 

Kurt:                Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I’m Kurt Dinan on Twitter, and I barely do anything there, so that's not helpful. Um, mostly my website, which I kind of overhauled, is at Kurt Dash Dinan: D I N A N and Kurt is with a K dot com. Actually, you get like, there are three pretty cool stories to The Scam List you can get for free on there, which is like a nice introduction to kind of what the book would be. So you get that on my website and then, um yeah, The Scam List is available in, like, any sort of online retailer. Uh, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. All of that. Um and that's my teen con artist book that I don't have, like, good qualifying titles for. I always just say it's like Better call Saul with teenagers. But that doesn't— 

Mindy:             I love that! It’s great! 

Kurt:                I know right? Like older people would totally get that.

Mindy:             I think you can use it. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.