Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

Mindy: We're here with Len Joy, author of Everybody Dies Famous. Len came to ,if not writing, definitely publishing in his sixties and I have had quite a few guests who entered into this journey later on in life and they always seem to get a really good response. I think that aspiring writers like to hear that you don't have to have made it before you're Thirty. I personally wasn't published till I was in my mid-30s so I feel that pressure often, in my twenties, of you know maybe not having accomplished things or hit any Pinnacle that I was aiming for yet. When you're in your twenties it feels like you need to be doing something now. So I’d really just like  to talk about making that choice and making that move towards publishing later in life but first let's talk about writing. Have you always been a writer or did you come to the actual Act of writing later as well? 

Len: I think when I was really young it’s hard to remember sometimes that far back. I did have these aspirations. I liked the idea of being a writer when I went off to college in the 60s and became an English major, that was a path, I thought, to world fame as a writer. And I went to the University of Rochester and during the first year actually I took this course on English literature, and the Professor shredded my paper. I was only 18, not a lot of confidence. And he sort of totally destroyed it at that point. Switched to economics and then went into business, and I still had that notion, I was just convinced I didn't have the talent to be a writer. You do a lot of writing in business, but it’s always... I had a small business, manufacturing company. I was always writing to the banks asking for money describing business and stuff but once I started having children and liked to write about the kids and sort of poke fun at them and my wife and myself. And I got a lot of great feedback on my holiday letter, which was easy when the kids were young and couldn't read it and I continued that tradition and realized that was something I really enjoyed doing. 

I still continued in my business for 20 years and around 2003 when I got a mail flyer from the University of Chicago Graham School offering creative writing course, and do I want to take that? I was winding down the business. I had businesses in Phoenix and I’m located in Chicago and I did it with my brother in law. I would commute back and forth for basically every 10 days I go to Phoenix and then come back and so I did a lot of reading and sort of writing during those long flights. But it always gives us an excuse when I couldn't take any other courses because my schedule is so irregular but once that stopped basically on a whim I decided I would try this course and I really enjoyed it and I got good feedback. It was just the basics of writing you know, write 300 words of fiction. The instructor was encouraging but not, “don’t quite your day job” kind of encouraging. 

I enjoyed writing. I liked telling stories. I moved on and took like a whole sequence of courses from the University and then I also, each year I would go to the Iowa Writers Festival which is a great program. They give you so many different opportunities. It’s like summer camp for adults. you get a week away from everything else and just sort of immersed in whatever course you're taking it and going to book readings and stuff like. 

So that was probably in my 50s. And I didn’t consider myself a novelist. Some people I think have a novel that they want to write and I didn't have that. I had, I have stories and experience running a Manufacturing Company a small engine remanufacturing business with 300 employees. Just a lot of material for writing. It wasn’t a great business but it was a great experience. I think that’s one of the disadvantages of writing when you’re older, is you have less time to make your mark but one of the advantages is in addition to having more financial stability is you have all this experience.

Mindy: And it’s that experience that is interesting and I want to come back to that because you mentioned having a professor, a teacher, Mentor, kind of really dissuade you from something that you were interested in and turned you away from something that you wanted. You said that you felt as if you're being told you didn't have the talent to write. I think it's very interesting to take that statement and set it beside what you just said about having experience. Because personally and my viewpoint on this has changed -  I used to really Bank on that word talent and believe that it was a latent thing that we were given at Birth or not. As I have become older and looked at some of the writing I produced in my twenties, I can definitively tell you that is not true. 

I thought I was really good and I'm not saying that you weren't at 18, I'm simply saying that I know the writing that I was producing in my Twenties that was being rejected again and again and again - as I have told my listeners before I was querying for 10 years I was rejected for 10 years and I earned all of those rejections because my writing was not ready yet. As a 42 year old I can look back at that and identify a seed, be it creativity or whatever you want to call it. I'm not going to call it Talent. That wasn't there yet. I learned from my criticism. It sounds like you had a rough brush. I never had anyone tell me - you're not going to make it cuz you don't have what it takes. I had people say - you need to work if you want this. Which is a true statement and a helpful statement. Simply saying you don't have it -  is not helpful. 

With this in mind I want you to think about - because I know I have many Educators too, out there that listen to my podcast. Putting those two statements beside each other -  what do you find to be like the takeaway there -  talent versus work and travail?

Len: I have this sort of dual-career of writing and and competing in triathlons, both of which I went into in my 50s. My position, my feeling is that most people have a decent amount of talent if you want to call it that. Or ability, let’s say ability to say, write, or compete athletically. And then there’s a few, the rare exception in writing, where the person doesn't need any training at all, they’re just naturally brilliant. But that's such a small percentage, I don’t think it even applies. 

Even with your ability you need to work at it, whether it’s a sport or writing. You need training. I personally know I benefited from great instructors who opened my eyes to how much there is involved in the profession of writing. It's not just sitting down and writing words. A lot of things storytelling, formation of the stories, and just mundane things like dialogue, punctuation. There’s a lot to learn and I found that you have to put in the time. There’s no shortcut to that. 

I tell that story more as a cautionary tale, for me like when people are in workshops to remember that when you know, like a lot of the workshops now you get - 18 year olds, and 20 year olds and 40 and and 50 and 60 year olds. As we get older sometimes you get out in the real world and you get rejected in a lot of ways. Customers, stuff like that. And it can maybe coursen you or harden you a little but, I always remember that that 18 year old boy was so sensitive. It wasn’t that the professor was - it was the same experience you probably had. The paper wasn’t very good. I wasn’t used to writing papers. I just took it to heart. I made a good choice at that time to go into business, which I also enjoyed. He didn’t extinguish the flame. I postponed that adventure. 

Mindy: Postponement is a good word to use here. It's a long journey no matter how you use your mile markers in publishing and writing - the line always extends further into the distance. There's always something else you're going to want, I'll put it that way. I remember in my -  let's call it naivete -  in my twenties thinking, “you know if I could just get a book published then I'll be happy.” I think I have 12 books published now.

Len: Then you’re really happy.

Mindy: I’m not, though. You want something else. You always want something more. Now I’m like, I’ve done well, I’ve made a living as a writer. I’m not a New York Times bestselling author though. If I could just get that... right? I mean, the rung is always moving higher and that is a good thing because it pushes us to continue to improve.

Let's talk about your book and moving forward through these years of writing, knowing that you wanted to write, having that creative flame still burning inside - walk us through that process and how you arrived where you are now with a small press title. 

Len: Going back to when I was taking those courses, I started taking novel writing courses and they had a sequence at the University of Chicago. And I didn’t realize when I signed that most people who were taking that course already had written what they think of as their novel and they were just trying to figure out how to make it better. I had no novel. I had just been taking short stories and writing really, flash fiction and things. When I took that course we were going to critique a chapter each week. It was a great incentive to apply myself. I took a short story I had about a guy who had pitched… he’s driving down the road and heading towards a wedding. I evolved at - I would write a chapter each week. Ultimately four or 5 years later it became my novel American Pastime.  

It took a long time to get it published because I was trying, in the original format it had grown to like a fifty year saga, from the fifties up to the early 2000s. I got some feedback as I was trying to get it published that as a debut author, it’s too long, too involved, you need to cut it back. You know those are tough things to hear. But I was able to, and I’m flexible enough, I cut the novel in half, cut out many of my beloved characters and ended it right after the Vietnam War. 

It’s a family Saga about the Stonemason family, with Dancer Stonemason who pitched a perfect game in minor leagues and then his life unravels. He doesn't make it to the majors and it's sort of America growing up in the 50s and 60s through the war. So I ended it there and managed to get a small publisher and then I got great reviews and some sales success. It's really hard to sell from those independent platforms. And I wrote another novel. It’s different from that, Better Days, but I came back to - I had all this material that I used. I decided I would continue the story. 

Even though it's a stand-alone novel, I wrote Everybody Dies Famous using the same characters that survived, like 30 years later. The whole novel takes place in a single day. In some ways it’s a lot easier in some ways more challenging. But, all the activity is focused and it gives you a good framework to write the story.

Mindy: You made that jump to becoming a published author. You're with a small press. You mentioned earlier, you know, this is an experience you had before -  it is difficult to move quantities when you're with a small press simply because there's so much noise out there in the world. Making yourself visible is difficult. I’m published with one of the Big Five and I can tell you it's still difficult to get attention and get eyes on your book and put yourself in front of people simply because there's just so much noise. So much noise all the time, everyone saying -  I wrote a book! it's very hard to make yourself stand out. What is your experience been then with the Indy press world and are you looking to replicate that? Are you going to stay in the Indy world, or are you looking to… what's in your future?

Len: I was fortunate I was published by a group called Hark! New Era publishing. A husband and wife team. I was their first book published, and then I was their last book published. They had children and careers and were trying to make this work and couldn't keep it going but they were really good editors. Then, the next book I moved on to another small press, and I wasn't satisfied really, with the marketing attention and the arrangements. So I actually bought the book back from them and went through Kindle Direct publishing for that experience and… Which was good. I’m glad I did that because It gave me a chance to experiment with trying to do social media ads. It’s just something I’m not good at and would like help with. 

I'm 69 years old. I can’t wait years for the agents to see the Wonder of my Work. I just finished my fourth novel. I would like to move up the food chain to a big press, and you need an agent to do that. But I can feel for agents because they get what sounds like hundreds of submissions a week. They just have to go through quickly and I always want to take my shot at it. 

But, for Everyone Dies Famous was published by BQB Publishing which is a hybrid publisher. I’m just very grateful for that. When I started writing I don't think that was even an option. BQB does a quality job. They publish good books. They provide a partnership. They’re doing what you’d have to do as a self-publisher, but for most of us they are doing a much better job at that. And they share the royalties. I’d love to make a living at it, but I’ve made a living and what I'd Really like to get is readers.

Mindy: You bring up an interesting point and you're not the first person I’ve heard say this. I've had multiple authors who are older say you know, my remaining window is only so big.

Len: We plan to live forever but we may not.

Mindy: We might not. I mean it's a pretty good bet. So it is something to be considered. It may not be the most happy thought. But it is in fact, reality. And also, you were saying that you took the step of buying your rights back and self publishing through Kindle Direct. Trying to figure out the confusing algorithm maze that is Kindle, Amazon advertising, Facebook advertising, any of it. It is not easy. I have friends in the Indie publishing industry that's 50% of their job, is just figuring out how to crack those algorithms, how to put together an ad that works and all of those things. And of course it’s all very tech-heavy which, I imagine  - making a generalization - I imagine may also be more intimidating, for someone that hasn’t grown up and been around computers and really digging into them their entire lives.

Len: Right.

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Mindy: I am very interested to talk to you about another aspect of your life - that being athleticism. I am also an athlete, was an athlete in High School, lost that in my twenties and in the beginning of my 30s because I was too busy. Returned to it then end of 30s and now into my forties. And you are a competitive triathlete.

Len: You know, I was a jock growing up. I went to college thinking I could play football. I love sports. After college there’s no way to have competition. I started hearing about these triathlons, and thought about it for like ten years. I’m average at running, biking and swimming. Not elite by any stretch. But put them all together and maybe I can compete. You know, write a page a day and I'll have a novel in a year. 

But it got me, you know, I took a couple of YMCA classes and then I found a trainer and you discover A Whole New World. It’s a lot. I thought I could swim. This morning my training was ahead an hour and a half bike ride on the trainer in the basement now that we're all sequestered. And I went to the Y for a swim lesson. It’s like, it's great. I’m continuing to learn stuff. I’m not elite, really, but because of my age group, I’m able to compete on Team USA because there's just fewer and fewer of us still competing.

Mindy: And you completed an IronMan, correct?

Len: That was a great experience. I don't think I’ll repeat it because it just takes so much time and training to do it. I did an IronMan in Idaho, Coeur d'Alene with a group that I still  train with and some people I know have gone on to complete ten or eleven IronMans. I just don’t. I just don’t have the time. A bike training ride is like six hours.

Mindy: I'm support staff for an IronMan here locally. I run around, stabbing trash and picking it up and grabbing people’s water bottles and taking their empty bottles, and sometimes they're taking their full piss bottles. I don’t compete because I would drown. I would be dead. So that's not in the cards for me and never will be, but I do support because it’s amazing. It’s  a stunning amount of athleticism and determination and just mind over matter involved in that and I love that you as an individual are participating in both exercising the mind and the body. Constantly moving forward and learning. That’s what I Aspire to. In 20 years I want to be able to say the same thing 

Len: I always find like those activities are really complementary in the sense that, I ran the Boston Marathon. I got the chance to do that. When you run a marathon, you don’t run 26 miles at once. It’s a step at a time.you train for it. Just like a novel. Just do a little bit each day. Training on the days you don’t want to train. Same with writing. You’ve got to sit down and do something everyday. They support each other. It’d be easy, especially now, with the world the way it is, not to get out of bed in the morning.

Mindy: Oh yeah. If you don’t give me a  reason to get out of bed, I'll stay there. Last thing, if you could let people know where they can find you online, that would be great.

Len: My website, www.lenjoybooks.com. Facebook, search for Len Joy. The same with Twitter. I have a newsletter and I would welcome more subscribers.

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.