Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

Ad: Life can get sweaty, sometimes. Carpe keeps you dry. Carpe has not only created a revolutionary underarm antiperspirant, a lotion that outperforms every major antiperspirant on the market in a pit to pit test. But Carpe also has a full line of sweat care for everywhere. Founded by two guys who had sweaty palms their whole lives, Carpe was created with dermatologists and people actually diagnosed as excessive sweaters. Whether you want to avoid a sweaty face, underarm stains, smelly feet or below the belt sweat, Carpe has a solution for you. Carpe has a 60 day full. No questions asked. Money back guarantee. Find the full line at mycarpedotcom. 

Mindy: We're here with Lucinda Halpern of Lucinda Literary and she is one of our agent guests that is here to talk a little bit about her own agency and then of course some tips and tricks for all the authors that are out there in the query trenches. And also we're going to have a conversation about why you need an agent in the first place. That's a question that keeps coming up for me whenever I do any type of interview. So let's just start Lucinda with you, telling us a little bit about yourself, what you represent, your agency. And one of the things that we talked about earlier, I know you're excited to share some of the workshops and events that you do for aspiring writers that helps kind of separate Lucinda Literary from the pack. 

Lucinda: Thank you so much Mindy. I'm so happy to be here today. I'm happy to tell you a little bit about my background which is an unconventional path to literary agenting.I started in the publicity department of HarperCollins. I moved on into an online marketing role at Scholastic that was pretty separate from the book division but did inspire a love for all things online marketing for authors. Later on I moved to a boutique literary agency. I had a wonderful mentor there and got to work with Gretchen Rubin on The Happiness Project, which was really a highlight of my career. 

But I always was an entrepreneur who wanted to start my own business and everyone who knew me knew that. So I started Lucinda Literary which is now 11 years strong. We’re based in Manhattan. We represent elevated self help. So books by PhD’s, usually science or research backed or you know a TED speaker or an expert online in some way. Health, lifestyle books, memoir. We have a new agent doing narrative nonfiction which is fantastic and more literary fiction. So we do a bit of fiction now. Some Children's books. Business books are really what we're known for. So it's a varied list which was important to me. The mission of my agency was really books that change the way we work, think and live and the belief that every good idea and every writer's voice needs to be heard. So that's all worked out superbly well. And I'm so grateful. 

The new innovation that we're most excited about at Lucinda Literary is our signature courses called Get Signed. We also have these live events and workshops with a ton of experts that I'm connected to. Or I give guidance on writing a book proposal or guidance on building your platform, all of the things that are critical in today's ever more prohibitive market, and they're made for writers entering the publishing process. So it doesn't take an advanced degree in publishing. I get to meet all kinds of writers that way. It’s a supportive community where they get to help each other out. I get to workshop your material, it's really everything I love about being in this business and it's sort of unique that a literary agent who's actively selling and talking to publishers every day in New York is also making this a priority. So we're really proud of it. 

Mindy: It is important to talk about those different approaches and like your own journey being a little bit different, especially starting in publicity. I think that's a really interesting starting point to have your feet in. I would imagine that's highly significant for you and your life as an agent and the skills that you acquired. 

Lucinda: Yes. So you get really used to rejection and you have to fight passionately for your authors. It's all about blanket pitching, also developing contacts and personal relationships, but really fundamentally about advocacy and tenacity and follow up and selling all of which becomes really important when you grow to become a literary agent. Of course, I had to learn all of the negotiations for specific book rights contracts. But I found that that early background in simply doing outreach for authors and learning that landscape was particularly important. And now with marketing being the order of the day for any author, fiction or nonfiction, having a deep understanding of the media landscape in the online marketing world is just critical, I think.

Mindy: I was reluctantly dragged kicking and screaming to TikTok. I'm 42. And so I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't dance like that's never going to happen. Featuring just books and you know, other people's books and my books. But you know, you mentioned marketing being so much a part of an author's life now. We are not just writers and a lot of people hate that, but it's simply the truth. So do you have any advice about how to jump those initial barriers of Oh, I'm not a salesman? 

Lucinda: Many writers we work with from novelists to PhD’s are marketing phobic as they begin. I try to encourage people to do what's right for them, what's authentic to them. That's what I've seen our successful authors doing they find the audience, they message to them constantly, but not in an annoying way, like in an actually helpful way where they're lending valuable content or if you're a novelist, you're lending a unique voice, unique spin. We really try to guide authors on the right path to what's authentic to them. 

I would say that of course it differs for fiction and nonfiction in the spaces where we represent. Editors are looking for a large social media following or online platform, but it doesn't need to be millions of instagram followers. Right? That's a myth. What it needs to be is a very engaged audience. And I often tell people that an email list is more important than your social media following. And it's all about the way you present this to an editor or an agent. So that's one type of author that requires that online platform. Another type of author could be a psychologist or, you know, I keep going back to professors and PhD’s or a financial professional. No one's expecting you to have a large public presence, what you need to have is a network. You know, you need to have a speaking schedule or organizations that you're affiliated with that will sell your book as a novelist or memoirist. The best thing you can do is get your story out there even in small slices, right? Like with notable publications online, just sort of prove those writing credentials because otherwise you don't want to be invisible on Google. The last thing you want is for an agent or an editor to Google you and find nothing. What that says to the recipient is that you have no audience around you.

Mindy: Writers that are new to the concept of a writer also being a marketer and promoter. It's something you just have to swallow. That's where we are. The industry is very much changed from what it was 20 years ago and you just have to move with that flow. 

Lucinda: Yes, that's it. But this will touch on one of the other points that I know is of interest to your listeners, which is that with the pandemic, it's actually a great time to get online right? Like we're spending more time at home. We're spending more time online. So yeah, it's crowded out there. But there are so many ways you can virtually connect with an audience, whether it's on Instagram or whether you're a novelist offering book club appearances. In ways you don't need to work, travel and speak as hard because it's a more informal, intimate way to meet with a large swath of readers. So I think there are more tools available to those authors who are loath to market as well as those who are really excited to market. 

Mindy: I agree with that and I know that there's always a little bit of reluctance to put yourself out there, especially like I was saying like, I don't want to learn a new platform. I do well on Twitter and I do well on Facebook and it's like, why do I want to put myself on TikTok? But it's like you can find ways to use these platforms that fit you. And of course, like you said, if you hate something, if you try it and it's not for you, then don't do it. I tried to crack Tumblr so many times and I was like, okay, this just isn't working for me. Like I'm out. 

A lot of aspiring writers, I think, view agents almost as an US versus them, they're gatekeepers. The first roadblock that you have to overcome. All of the verbiage that I hear specific to agents, when we're talking about people that have been rejected over and over and over, they build up this negative thought cloud around them when really, once you get an agent, what you want to be thinking about instead is -  who is this person that I am going to be working with closely about something that I am emotional about, someone is going to be a business partner, someone that is going to be helping me? Instead of I have to overcome this person, I have to force this person to like me, notice me. It really is a partnership. 

And I hear so many people talking about agents and the hunt itself in a negative way, which I totally understand. To be upfront. I was querying for 10 years. I understand the frustration and the hurt of rejection. I know it so well, but I also know that yes, you do need an agent, because I hear a lot of people saying, you know, I'm just going to do this on my own. I was in a chat the other day where someone asked me - why do you have an agent? Like at this point you could probably sell books on your own. And I was like, well, I mean, I guess I could but I don't like getting screwed. That's where I am, right. So, if you could talk a little bit just about having an agent and why it's important. 

Lucinda: Absolutely. It's so funny that I've found myself more recently, especially with the pandemic, of being in the chair of convincing certain authors that they shouldn't self publish and they should go the traditional route for reasons X, Y and Z, which we can certainly talk about. But as you know, Mindy, you know, an agent is the first step to getting a major or even an independent publishing deal, because we are the trusted gatekeepers and that's really about our relationships and our taste. Editors will know of a certain agency or certain agent and they either leap to their submissions or they don't. So much like the publicity business, it's a relationships business and you don't want to go cold at approaching your dream publisher, you probably won't break in that way. 

So yes, you need an advocate for your rights to protect your interest to draft the contracts and all of that. As you touched on, it's really about having a lifetime partner, like we call ourselves doulas, at least in the literature, you’re birthing your baby into the world. One of our authors said, I wouldn't just trust you with our books. I trust you with my life because it really is that right? The book sort of permeates every part of your emotional life and your career. And so, it is super important to trust your agent. Super important to share an editorial vision and to know that that person is a strong business advocate for you. 

I do understand what you're talking about with the query process. I know how disheartening it is. It's even harder now, in our email only world. We used to send printed manuscripts to the desk of an agent and, you know, in the mail and someone would be reading those manuscripts. Now, It's like what if you don't get through with your subject line? Or what if you get caught in someone's spam filters? If you're doing this cold, it can just be very, very disheartening. Of course there are tips that we have for breaking through the slush pile. 

Coming back to your original point that you hear from others. It surprises me. I think we need to segregate the disheartening process of querying from the actual later relationship you form with an agent because in our experience, we're the champions for your book. We don't succeed unless you succeed. Our livelihood is based on your livelihood. So that makes for something mutually beneficial. Whereas the querying process where agents get a bad rap is no one gets back to me. How do they not see it? Here's something that's interesting because the purpose of a query letter is to hook someone into a conversation. It's a critical data point. If your query letter is not getting requests, there's a problem with your letter. If your letter is getting requests, but no one's biting on your material, it's a problem with your material. So it's not like every agent out there is just ignoring me and I don't get in. If I don't have a personal connection, there is probably an issue with how you're presenting your material. 

Mindy: People resent hearing that. I mean basically the answer is like - it's not me. It's you. Yeah, it is hard. It's difficult. But the query writing processes its own skill. It's its own piece of marketing itself. So moving on from that, why don't you share some of the common query mistakes that you see. 

Lucinda: Well, so many, I could talk about this for a long time. I do have some funny reels on Instagram about it and we certainly talk about it in our workshops. The most common is that I leave reading a letter and I don't know what the book actually is, in two sentences - an elevator pitch. I don't know what it is and I don't know why you are in the best position to write it. So using the example of a memoir, your life story could be incredibly important and so many people want to share their life story with the world, especially if there's trauma, if there's, you know, tragedy involved, they want to touch other readers with that story. I admire that so much. But if you have built no audience around that particular story beyond your immediate network of family and friends and you're not a trained technical writer. So, Tara Westover, Educated, being such a popular example of a memoir that really it was so successful because the writing was gorgeous, but also the plot was otherworldly and and relatable at the same time. So it took us on this journey that most people don't experience, but they could relate to the family dynamics and that to me. Makes for a really compelling query letter. We called the query letter of your movie trailer, you're giving us a taste of the drama and the action and it has to feel that action packed in your letter and you're also talking about why you're the person to write it. Those two aspects need to be there. 

Other top query mistakes. It's not a personal approach, it's a slush approach. So the number of times I get a letter where it's someone who writes genre fiction, we don't represent genre fiction. Why am I receiving this? It feels like something that is total slush. I'm not going to pick it up. There's got to be, you know, some sort of personal intro, there's got to be a closing that elicits interest. It can't be so passive. We see a lot of passivity in these letters. Please let me know if you'd like to see the material. Is that how an agent would advocate for your book? You need to find some leverage, you need to find some urgency. Maybe it's the timeliness of your book. Maybe it's riding the coattails of a book like it that's been really successful. Book publishing, like film, it's a lookalike business. If it looks like something that was super successful, we'll take a look at it. Those are some top points you need to hit in your letter.

Mindy: Something that I talk to people about a lot, because I offer editorial services and I do query reviews for people. This is something that I tell people and I could be wrong, but my reaction when I open a query letter when they open with - Hello, my name is Blah Blah Blah and I am writing to you seeking representation. My first reaction is - no shit right? 

Lucinda: Yes, I know, right?

Mindy: They might follow up with the title of their book. My book is a 85,000 word historical fantasy. And I always tell people -  listen, every single person writing to an agent is number one, seeking representation. Number two has a title, word count and a genre. Put that at the bottom, put your hook at the top. Grab the agent and then if they're interested they can get down to the bottom. My other thing is - because I see a lot of especially new writers that are overwriting. For example fantasy and sci fi, they tend to get a larger word count because of world building. They also are cooler markets right now. So I always tell people if you open with  - my 120,000 word fantasy, the agent might be out just because of that word count. You have an absolutely bang on like, oh my gosh, that is an amazing concept. If they get to the concept and then they get to the bottom they see the word count. But like yeah, maybe I'll look at your 1st 10 anyway just to see. But in my opinion, they're going to close as soon as they see a word count, that is just not something they want to take a shot at.

Lucinda: I couldn't agree more. I mean the other analogy we use is the Amazon description, like if you think about the fact that your query letter is your pitch and what this might look like to any cold reader on Amazon, you hook them in right away. You have to and then it's about who wrote this and what's their credential for doing so. I think there's so many poor titles out there to your point, to lead with the title, especially if it's not a strong one, can be an automatic turn off. So I would much prefer leading with the elevator pitch. That's 1-2 sentences which we all need to sell books, keeping things succinct. It's just the best elements of your story, fiction or nonfiction.

Mindy: Absolutely,I agree. And I'm glad to hear that backed up by an agent since that's the advice I’ve been giving people for 10 years. We touched on it a little bit. You were talking about self publishing and the indie world versus the trad world and how you occasionally have authors that you are almost pushing towards - Yes, you need to try trad even though it can feel like there are so many barriers in the way. Obviously Indie Pub and Self pub has come a long way from where it used to be. I write underneath a pen name and I do that in the indie pub world and it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks and the same is true under my real name, which I write in the trad pub world. So if you could talk a little bit about how a person can evaluate their own strengths and weaknesses and make that decision. 

Lucinda: First of all, I love that you've taken a hybrid approach yourself. I mean, what a fantastic experiment that gives you insights to guide other writers.

Mindy: Experiment is the right word, definitely. I’m still trying to work things out. 

Lucinda: So if I were trying to assess this myself as a writer, I would really begin with my existing built in audience. If it's very small. Again, if it's something your mother would love but no one else will know you,  I might think that it's better for self publishing just very honestly. And by the way, with self publishing successfully, if you want to have a long publishing career and you maybe want to go the traditional route later on, you need that self published book to sell. So be prepared to run it like a small business and assemble, assemble the team and give it your best shot. Because otherwise, when you approach agents and publishers later on, those sales numbers are poor. It's not working to your advantage. 

The second is if the topic is very niche, what's the best way to figure that out? Go to comparative titles. If you go to comparative titles and you know, again, in my world, it's a business book. So I'll get queries that are -  I'm writing a book for law professionals, that are middle managers. It's starting to feel really niche. To me, if there's no individual application, we want books that touch the corporate executive as much as they touch the stay at home mom, because we want to think in terms of beliefs and practices, not in terms of small, granular vocational specific things you can do. So if the topic is niche, you're going to find that out by searching for comparative titles on the topic and seeing that hey, they're largely self published or they're published by a press I've never heard of. Probably this fits in that wheelhouse rather than approaching HarperCollins for it.

As a novelist, it's obviously a bit tougher to gauge, right? Because if you think the writing is gorgeous and you've been told that, I always advocate for a professional view like yours Mindy, you know, someone who's an experienced author or editor or professor who's reading this and you trust for their brutal honesty and this person or people in your writing group say to you, this is unbelievable and you've got to try the traditional path. Then it's not about what your existing audience, it's about the writing itself. And then for me personally, which can be tougher to assess without a conversation, without an agent, it's about the idea, you know? Is the idea so novel, so different, so counterintuitive or something that, again, using the lookalike term looks like something that we've seen, but has this other breakthrough element? The big idea, fiction and nonfiction alike, is just so compelling to publishers. So the best thing I can advise aspiring writers to do is go through that painful query process if they think there is a seed of potential on the basis of their writing their platform or their big idea and see if you can find an agent that way and do whatever you can to be in conversation with the publishing insider. They will give you the market expertise.

Mindy: I know that a lot of people that want to go the self publishing route, I hear them saying that they want to do this because they want to avoid the pain of rejection. They want to avoid and they're not understanding that rejection will find you no matter where you go, rejection sees you every morning when you check your sales. Rejection, when you're applying for promotions through different platforms. Rejection when you are soliciting reviews from review sites. Rejection is part of the game, no matter where you are going. And so if you want to go the self pub or the Indie route, simply because you're trying to avoid having your feelings hurt, you need to get a new set of feelings.

Lucinda: You need a thick skin. Reviews will absolutely break you. So if you're not prepared for the rejection from agents and by the way, our agency, the agency, I know they're pretty kind with their rejections. It's pretty much a template - lead with the positive elements then go into the critiques and maybe it's just as simple as, it's not the right fit for their list at that time. Maybe they have a competitive title. Maybe the market isn't doing X right now or their relationships aren't looking for it. You can't take it so personally, there are a lot of haters out there as reviewers on amazon, right? Like every hater wants to be vocal these days. You've got to have thick skin. It's so important in this career. And fundamentally you have to have the burning belief that writing is not a choice. It's something you need to do. You've got to wake up and do it every day and you've got to see it through, no matter who finds it. 

Mindy: That's very true. I mean, in the end, you have to be doing this because you believe in your work, not because you're looking to become rich or famous.

Lucinda: We all suffer from rejection and the need for validation. You'll find that you'll find your reader, it's a long road, as I always say.

Mindy: Last thing, why don't you share with my listeners where they can find you and where they can find Lucinda Literary online and what your submission requirements are?

Lucinda: Thank you for asking that. It's funny, like many of you writers listening, we are also making this concerted effort to market ourselves on social media and through an email list. And I've had plenty of ambivalence about that process. But I thought it was so important because here we are telling authors to do it, if we're not doing it ourselves and we don't really understand the challenges and the insights like, how can we be guiding others? So we're doing that. So you can find us basically on all social media at LucindaLiterary. On Twitter. I think we're at @LucindaLitNYC I myself am @LucindaBlue. Elsewhere across its @LucindaLiterary and then of course our website is helpfully Lucinda Literary. There you will find all of our services. Our live events our courses are free, resources for master classes. I mean there's just a ton and I really recommend subscribing to the email list, which you can do through the website because we send out every Thursday, either an expert interview or tips and strategies for querying. And I just have so much fun what feels like an intimate correspondence with the writers who are on our list. So those are all the ways you can find us. And in terms of querying, we have a portal, it gives you a few steps to go through to make sure that, you know, you want to do the work to actually get to the right agent and pitch the right thing. You can just find that through the submissions tab on our website. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.