Mindy: Today’s guest is Michael Tougias, the author of many true rescue stories, including The Finest Hours, which was adapted into a Disney film. His latest, Into The Blizzard has been adapted for middle grade readers from his adult non-fiction book about the Blizzard of 1978. Michael joined me today to talk about the difference between seeking publication with fiction versus non-fiction, and the challenge of adapting his own work for a younger audience.

Mindy:             Much of my audience is comprised of aspiring authors and as a published nonfiction writer, it would be great if you could talk about the difference in the publication process when writing nonfiction. I know some things are similar and some things are different, such as writing a proposal versus writing a query. So if you could just talk a little bit about the process of nonfiction publishing and the attempt to acquire an agent with nonfiction and that process as it differs from fiction.

Michael:          I think the nonfiction is easier in terms of the proposal level and securing a publisher or agent. And the reason I say that is you don't need to have the whole book completed to land a contract. My proposals are usually about say five to six pages. That proposal alone with even just one or two sample chapters could be enough to land a contract. Whereas with fiction they're probably gonna want to see the entire book. If you're a brand new author, you're, you know, there's a lot more work going into it, not knowing what the final result will be. Proposal for nonfiction is pretty straight forward. I open up with the concept of the book, then I'll talk about the author's credentials. That doesn't mean you have to have a book published under your belt, but maybe you have expertise in this area or you've been working in the field or studying this particular topic.

Michael:          The nitty gritty gets down to the what I would call the meat of the proposal, where you're, you're describing usually in a chronological order of how this narrative nonfiction is going to flow. You're basically telling the story in a concise form. And finally I usually mentioned similar books and I think that's helpful because oftentimes the uh, editor or publisher will know some of the more popular similar books. And then you're explaining the similarities but also the differences. What makes your book unique. So in fact, I think nonfiction might be a little a little easier.

Mindy:             When you talk about your topics and you were saying when there are other books that have touched upon the topics that you're using as comp titles, you illustrate how yours is similar yet also different and is bringing something new to the table. For nonfiction writers, should they be looking to touch on topics that are of current debate that perhaps are... obviously like global warming would be a good one for the moment. Is it important to be touching on things that are topical at the moment or is it more important to try to focus on a topic that's going to be evergreen?

Michael:          I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to focus on the topic of the moment because you know, for example, many of my books are historical in nature. For example, I did a book Above and Beyond about some lesser known events during the Cuban missile crisis. At the very end of the proposal, I say this is topical because of the current tensions with Iran and North Korea, but that's really the gist of the book that just has these little known events that almost put us on the brink of war during the Cuban missile crisis. So yeah, I think you've got to follow your path. And in terms of what is it that you're bringing new to the table, whether it's history or whether it's another topic and not get too hung up on what's going on currently, because by the time your book gets published, what's current now, it would be totally out of date and out of vogue.

Mindy:             Yes, that's very true. So is it similar to a fiction publishing then in that if you're going the traditional route, it's going to take anywhere from 18 months to two years to move from manuscript to published finished product?

Michael:          Yes. Maybe a little shorter in some cases. Um, I just signed a contract for a memoir, which are very hard to get published because everybody wants to write those. But I've done one in the past, but they're kind of outdoor humor like Bill Bryson A Walk in the Woods. Mine was called, There's A Porcupine in my Outhouse. This recent deal was have the manuscript to them by this April and I actually just sent it off last night. So I was ahead of schedule and the book will be published the following April.

Mindy:             So let's talk about your newest release Into the Blizzard. It is geared toward a middle-grade audience. So why did you make the decision to move away from adult and put your foot into the middle grade realm?

Michael:          Well, a while back, probably four years ago, I was connected with Christy Ottaviano, one of the editors at Holt for middle reader books. And we did, uh, The Finest Hours as a middle reader book. Now that was my adult book that became a Disney movie. The Finest Hours is about the greatest coast guard rescue ever. You know, that was an easy sell to have that book turned into a middle reader. But I found that she and I worked so well together, editor and writer that I said, why don't we do a couple of my other adult books, adapt them for middle readers? And we've just been clicking on all cylinders. So that's how Into the Blizzard came about. That's the, that's the title for the young adult version of my adult book, which was titled Ten Hours Until Dawn, you know, same topic, but one is for adults,. Ten Hours is for adults and Into the Blizzard is for young adults.

Mindy:             And when you go about that adaptation, what are you looking for as the author of the original material? What are you looking to do with that to turn it into something that is more approachable for the middle grade reader, beyond a vocabulary, obviously. What is your approach? Are you changing structure or what are you looking at to say, how do I make this accessible to middle grade?

Michael:          Uh, you know, it's interesting. A lot of people think that, uh, the conversion process is a layup, but trust me it's not. It's a, it's a lot of work that's not really apparent in that probably the biggest step is the adult book might be say 70,000 words. Your middle reader book is going to be shorter, say 45,000 words and people think, Oh you just cut out parts of the book, but you can't do it that easy cause you're going to confuse the reader if you leave out one key component. So it's literally going through every sentence and saying, is there anything I can trim here without losing the readers focus and attention of the story? So you're going sentence by sentence and looking where you can trim and it's more labor intensive than I would have ever thought. You're simplifying some technical things for a middle reader, for example, Into the Blizzard takes place out on the ocean during the blizzard of 1978 so there are some nautical terms and not every middle reader will understand what they mean.

Michael:          So I might, you know, add a little bit of an explanation. I try to think back to when I was 12 years old, what kind of books did I like? And they were always the books that were fast paced. So that's, that's been my mantra. Make it fast paced. Again, a little more, uh, more work than I thought. But very rewarding when you, when you hear back from a, a teenager that says, you know, I'm not a big reader. I wasn't even looking forward to reading this book, but I read it in two nights and I'm like, wow,. That's what I hope, you know, just make it fast. Make them feel like they're on this boat. Caught in the blizzard, the storm of the century on the ocean.

Mindy:             I was not alive in 1978 but I would be there soon. And a lot of the familial legends that we have in my family is the blizzard. We talk about it all the time. I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in Ohio, I still live here. And the blizzard of 78 is a topic constantly. So when you're talking about choosing your topics yourself, whether for adult or middle grade, when you're, when you're adapting yourself, how do you find a topic? Like what as a nonfiction author makes you say, I know, let's do this next?

Michael:          That's a great question. And you know, having done seven books of that genre, you know, these true survival at sea stories, I'm constantly pitched ideas. When I go out and speak, someone will come up to me and say, Oh, I've got a survival at sea story for you. And within five minutes I know whether it's any good or not. Because what I find is most of the stories I hear would make a good magazine article but could never sustain a whole book. They don't have enough surprises. They don't go on long enough through a time period. Um, they're kind of cut and dry. I got in terrible trouble on the ocean, fell off the boat, was out there for hours, was rescued. So I'm looking for the more complex stories that will really surprise the reader with, with both the survival part of it, but also how did they get rescued?

Michael:          And oftentimes, uh, the rescues are just as exciting as the survivor's story. I did a book called A Storm Too Soon and that rescue takes place, 80 foot waves, one wave after another. It's on my website. What I found really compelling about A Storm Too Soon was even the rescue swimmer needed to be rescued. You know, once they dropped him down in the water to help with these survivors, he was overcome by these waves. So you could imagine the, the three people left in the helicopter going, Oh my God, now we can't even get our own guy back. So yeah, I'm looking for those twists, turns, surprises that'll carry a whole book. And I think, I think that rule of thumb would be good for other aspiring writers. Is that, is it a great magazine article or can it really carry a whole book of say 250 pages?

Mindy:             Yeah. And a lot of people don't understand cause the same thing happens to me as a writer when I'm out and I'm touring or if I'm having conversations even with people just in everyday life. And they'll say, well I have the idea for your next book. And I'm like, no actually I probably have the idea for my next book. But you know, tell me your story. And often it is like you're saying, it's just that it's a story.

Michael:          That's so true. I get pitched that all the time. And um, but you know what? Every say one out of 30 really is a fascinating story that I will begin to look into and then, you know, within a short period of time know if it's going to work or not.

Mindy:             I don't mind hearing people's stories at all. And sometimes there is something to them. But I think too, that very often you actually have to have that personal connection to the story in order for it to interest you. So oftentimes people say, you know, I have the best story. That's great for them. But sometimes it's only interesting if you know the people in the story or if you have a personal connection to it. And as a writer it is difficult sometimes to find those stories that are going to be more universal, that are going to pull in more than just the people who are already intimately connected to it. So how do you know as a nonfiction author when you've hit that gold mine of that universal story?

Michael:          For me, it's oftentimes an event that, uh, say it's, say it's a historical event that I'll go, Hey, I'm a big history buff, big history reader. But I had no idea that happened. For example, with Above and Beyond the Cuban missile crisis, I had no idea that the, the Soviet union shot down one of our pilots and killed them over Cuba. You know, people seem to know about Gary Powers shot down over Russia, but not this one. So I was like, wow, at that really surprised me and I want to learn more how that all happened and how that didn't lead to it all out war. I figured the reader is going to feel the same way. So it's, it's that element of surprise for me that, um, that I'm looking for. And the same with these, uh, true survival stories that I write as well. It's got to have that, that element of surprise going, wow, I can't, that seems to be off the charts in terms of how anyone could survive.

Mindy:             Yes. And survivor stories, they're thrilling simply because of the fact that we can see that humans are resilient and they can go through so much and come out the other side. And it also, I think, gives us hope and I think hope is something that we really need right now. And so survival stories I think are evergreen in so many ways, especially in dark times.

Michael:          Yes. And you know, just knowing that, say for example, uh, four young men and women from the coast guard will risk their lives going out for a total stranger who is in a life and death situation because they screwed up because of their own fault. And now you've got four young people putting their lives on the line to rescue them. So you're right, it has got that element that that we kind of need of hope and, but often times if I hear a story and I think maybe I could've survived that, I'll go, I don't want to write about it. I want to write about the ones that I go, I could have never made it.

Mindy:             Yes.

Michael:          I did a book, Fatal Forecast, where the, the vessel is hit by a hundred foot rogue wave. It's just a little 50 foot boat off Cape Cod and this a hundred foot rogue wave capsizes the boat and three of the four people inside are trapped and perish. But one, one guy gets out, his name's Ernie Hazzard and what he goes through in the next three days, and this is in late November in the North Atlantic, so you can only imagine. What he goes through was just off the charts. I mean the coast guard never dreamed they'd find them alive. They were just searching for a body. And the fact that he made it made me want to call him up, say, can I interview you? And he lived in California and I said, I will be on the next flight out when he said yes.

Mindy:             Have you ever written about an event where the outcome wasn't so rosy, where people were lost or there was not that element of redemption or hope at the end? Have you ever had to handle something like that?

Michael:          Yes, and surprisingly that's one of the books that people love and I get mail on and that's the Ten Hours Until Dawn for adults and Into the Blizzard for young adults. It does not have a a neat and happy ending. It's uplifting in that people did their best and tried. But what made that research interesting and unique for me was if some of the people perished, how can you write about what they're going through unless you speculate? And I got very lucky that someone on land recorded all their radio communications. So in some cases the men who are doomed are telling you what they're doing to try and fight through this, this storm, you know? And so getting back to say the proposals, for example, I remember when I wrote the proposal for that, I said this book is similar to The Perfect Storm, but very different in that in The Perfect Storm, Sebastian Junger had to speculate. But in Ten Hours Until Dawn, I have the radio transcripts and I, weave in what the men were saying from the actual radio communications and that, that definitely gives it this extra edge of tension when, you know, it's not Michael Tougias, uh, making up dialogue. I'm taking it direct from these audio tapes.

Mindy:             Oh boy, are those, is it difficult to listen to?

Michael:          Well, because I didn't know the men, it wasn't too difficult. But by the end of, you know, the year and a half of research, I did feel close to two of the guys in particular and, and it did become difficult. And when I speak on the subject, it's difficult to talk about them. One was a Charlie Bucko and he was like somebody out of central casting, like a Hollywood character. This tall, good looking guy with a free spirit. Funny, uh, had been in Vietnam, two purple hearts when he was there. He’d done a whole bunch of coast guard rescues and then decided I'm getting out of the coast guard cause I'm getting married and I don't want to make my wife a widow. And uh, when the storm comes and he's asked to go out and help some coastguard men or women in trouble out in the ocean, he says yes. And as the author, you know, the outcome isn't going to be good. So where you've grown close to that character, each time you speak on that subject, it does cause a little bit of pain.

Mindy:             Mmm. I can't imagine. I really can't. Coming up research and the process of interviewing your subjects face to face.

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Mindy:             How much research do you do before you actually began writing the book? Like, how much of a grounding do you take before you, before you decide you have enough to begin?

Michael:          I oftentimes I'll start the book even though I know the research is still going to continue and I encourage other writers to do the same because you can always go back and add more, tweak it, it starts to coalesce a little better if you actually start the writing while you're doing the research. And in terms of the, the time involved, I'd much rather interview people who were involved, you know, and just let them talk with a tape recorder than going back through archival material. In some books I've had to do, had to do both. For example with uh, The Finest Hours, you know, that became the movie. You know, some of the people involved are no longer with us. So you're going through newspaper interviews that they gave back in 1952 others are in their eighties when I interviewed them. And that was great cause I could sit down with these older gentlemen and just let the tape recorder run and then do follow ups. So it is, it is nice to have that mix. Whereas you know, if you're, I did two books on King Phillip's Indian war. There, it's all archival material and after a while it's kind of a lonely process.

Mindy:             Yes, exactly. And that was going to be my next question. Do you have a research assistant?

Michael:          I do it all on my own. You know, unless you're the David McCullough of the world, you're not going to have a research assistant. So that that strength of yours, you'll have to develop as strong as the writing of having people be comfortable around you to really open up and, and give them the confidence that you're going to tell their story accurately. Every once in a while you'll meet someone who's reluctant to, to talk. In the book A Storm Too Soon, there's three, three survivors and two wanted their stories to be out and be known, but the third didn't. But eventually I was able to show him the early chapters based on my interview with the other two and the rescuers. And that gave him a comfort level. And he was like, well, it's my story too. I don't want to be left out. So sometimes they will come around, you just, you have to be patient and not, not pressure them. But be persistent would be, uh, the message because oftentimes they'll change their mind when they see you're very serious and you're gonna pay close attention to the details.

Mindy:             Well, and also I assume when you are working with subject matter where people were in intense situations, they were in traumatic situations, I'm sure that you, you have to illustrate that you're going to be handling this correctly and with respect.

Michael:          Exactly. Um, and you know, and sometimes you become close friends with these people. The main survivor in my book Overboard, I just stayed at his house last week. I spend the winters in Florida and he's on the other side of Florida and I was over there speaking. So I just called them out of the blue and said, Hey, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods. Can I stay at your place? I've stayed there before. And he's like, sure Mike. And uh, you know, so we've become close. He knows he's got an open invitation to stay on my side of Florida and vice versa. So that, that's one of the biggest rewards I think is the friendships. And when the book comes out that the people who were there saying, you've got it right. Thank you. You know, they're sticking their necks out with a total stranger and because it's such a sensitive topic to them, life and death, you can't help but grow close. You know, you'd have to be a cold hearted SOB not to grow close to these people.

Mindy:             The ability to interview someone and to get them to open up, but also for them to be comfortable and to understand that you do regard them not just as a story or a scoop that they're a human being that has been through something. There's a special skill to getting people to open up to you. And, um, developing that relationship. So do you have any tips about how to be a both ethic and moral, ethical and moral interviewer?

Michael:          I do think it's okay to let the people you've interviewed check over your rough draft. Um, I don't see anything wrong with that. They're the one, they're the only ones who know the story anyways. If they're say out on the ocean alone, um, you're going by what they tell you. So I, I find that puts them at ease knowing, okay, I'm going to get a look at it. They're not going to change my writing style. They're not going to change the structure. But they may catch a little mistake here and there. Like they'll say, Oh, Mike, this event only lasted an hour. You have it down as lasting a couple hours. This shark, Mike, you've got it as five, but I got to tell you, it could be nine feet. You know, little things like that. And I welcome those. I want it, I want to make it accurate. So I think that would be a key way for a writer to have their subject feel comfortable. Say I'd be happy to let you take a look at these drafts and correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

Mindy:             And when it comes to actually conducting your interviews, do you tend to meet with the same person more than once?

Michael:          Yes. And I'll have a tape recorder and oftentimes sometimes I'll show up with two tape recorders and be taking notes and they'll be like, why? And I'll be like, I'm so afraid one won't record. You know, this is so important to me to get it all. And uh, and I always let them know, you know, we'll keep this conversation going for as long as, or as little as you like. With Ernie Hazzard and the book Fatal Forecast. I stayed at his house for a week straight. We had a wonderful time. We would do the interviews in the evening and then sometime, and then the next day I'd go over it and I'd have questions. Uh, but we'd also spend some fun time going out to dinner or taking walks. Yeah. My style's a little different. He had been interviewed by somebody else and he said, yeah, that person was just all business. And he said, you're not that. So I'm more comfortable. And I said, that's just me yet, you know, I, I, I don't know any other way to do it.

Mindy:             Yeah. And I think that you're going to get, especially if you're writing, you're writing beyond the facts with your nonfiction, you're actually delving into the person and their experience and their humanity. And in order to actually tap into that, you need more than the bare bones of the events. You need to understand this human being as well as you can.

Michael:          It's exactly it's, yeah. And sometimes you, the best way to do it is face to face. Now, if it's a minor character in the book, I don't mind doing the interview over the phone. You get the gist of what you need. What if it's a major character? You definitely want to be with them in person. You know, I've, I flew to France for one of the characters in A Storm Too Soon and stayed. I took my daughter with me and we stayed with the gentleman and his wife, uh, for four days and it was, we had the time of our lives, so, and he was just so appreciative that I came over. Um, so he's like, okay, this guy means business. He's kind of, he's really devoting himself to this project.

Mindy:             Absolutely. And speaking of that devotion, typically, how much time does it take you from rough draft to final products?

Michael:          It does vary, but I would say for the true survival rescue books, usually about two years. If you were doing it, you know, you're not, you're never doing anything full time. I speak around the country and you know, to either business groups or a lecture, I'm never doing it full time, but I'd say about two years. But you know, as I'm giving you that answer, I'm thinking of my latest book. It's going to be called The Waters Between Us. It's about me growing up in the relationship with my father and most of the book takes place in the, in the outdoors cause I'm an outdoors guy, always on rivers. And, um, that book took me... It's been at least 10 years and you would think that would be the fastest one to do because I'm writing it a lot from my own memory, but some parts, some parts are challenging and there's a tragedy in the book of family tragedy that brings my father closer together.

Michael:          But my two brothers advised me, we prefer you don't write about that. And I said I have to, it's, it's part of my journey of growing up. But I'd like you to take a look at that chapter because you were involved in this tragedy. It makes sure I don't make any mistakes. So there were just little things like that that made it a very time consuming book and not a lot of rewrites on that book compared to others. You know, for example, Overboard, I sent the manuscript to Simon & Schuster, the editor got back to me a month later and said it looks great. I'm sending it on to the copy editor. And I was like, Oh, you know, no changes? Nope, looks great. He said, so I was happy as hell. Cause I thought it looked good too. And then of course the copy editor makes a bunch of improvements because I always could use help there. Whereas The Waters Between Us, uh, I'd say the first three chapters I rewrote six, seven times.

Mindy:             When you're doing the research, when you're compiling, do you have... I know you were saying you usually have your recorder and you also are taking physical notes. When you are getting ready to compile all of this information, do you have a certain system that you go about? Do you have a corkboard in front of your desk? Do you spread things out on the floor around you? What's your method?

Michael:          Um, I'm glad you asked because it's, it's very unusual and very old fashioned. Um, everything's paper copies and everything's in files in the right order. So for example, I'll know where this interview or this bit of archival research goes and it might be a file I label "beginning of chapter two," you know, or it might be labeled "the ending of chapter two." But in each one of those files will be a whole bunch of paper, some will be little handwritten notes that I woke up in the middle of the night and remembered, all I need to say this. And um, it's would probably drive the younger people nuts who are used to everything digitally or electronically. But it just works for me. And in the writing process, and again, I just finished, uh, this new book just a couple of days ago, I would take all these different notes and then start looking at them and condensing them into say three or four sheets of master notes per chapter. So you're starting to throw out these little slips of paper and just get the gist of it down. And uh, yeah, so I'm a kind of a paper guy. Other people they might go to say the National Archives with their camera and take photos of whatever this historical document they're doing is right? For me, it's like, what am I going to do with that photo? I need it. And you know, like you said, laid out on the floor and on tables all around my writing station.

Mindy:             Yeah, that's what I do as well. Even though I write fiction, I do a lot of research before I start writing about anything and I will just have piles around me kind of fanned out and it may not make sense to anyone else and that's fine. It doesn't have to, it only needs to make sense to me and I often just have kind of a mess all around me and I just like to think of taking all that information. It's just being funneled into one place and transformed into fiction. And that's, that's my own process and it's, it is mostly physical copies as well. I, for whatever reason, when I'm doing research, I want to have that physical copy in front of me to write on, to make notes. I need that tactile interaction. It all helps me feel like I'm being more effective of a researcher.

Michael:          Do you find that, um, you write a pretty detailed outline for the fiction books and then when you're actually writing the book, you don't pay that much attention to the outline?

Mindy:             I don't outline at all. I keep all my information right at my fingertips so that when I get to a point where I need to reference something, I know which pile I need. I reach out and I grab that particular paper. But usually no, I'm not doing any type of outlining. I'm a, I'm a big fan of pantsing most everything.

Michael:          So you have a general idea of where this fiction book is going, but you don't have it all spelled out, you know, chapter by chapter. Here's how it's gonna flow.

Mindy:             Yeah, no, not at all. I, I just do the deep dive and I see what happens. So the way it feels organic to the fiction.

Michael:          And again, and that's, that's kinda similar even on the nonfiction where I do need a little bit of an outline via the proposal. Once I start writing, oftentimes I veer way off what I originally thought the flow would be. And do you, do you find Mindy, that at your level now that you can get a contract without writing the whole book?

Mindy:             Yeah, I'm, I'm fortunate enough that I can usually just pitch a synopsis, but my editor knows at this point that what I turn in as a synopsis may or may not be what actually happens in the book. I just give them something that says, this is my concept and this is probably what happens, but you know, that I may not stick to it and they, they will operate within those parameters for me. They think the concept is there. They trust me enough to know that I'll deliver the book.

Michael:          Oh, that's, that's a great, uh, a great relationship to have where they have that, that trust for you.

Mindy:             Yeah, it is. It is. I can't complain and uh, I revel in it and I know that I'm lucky and I'm very glad because fiction as you were saying, you do generally have to have a finished manuscript and you can pour a couple of years into a manuscript that may never sell.

Michael:           I know, I know. We're, we're in the craziest business there is, you know, maybe equated to farming where you don't know if your crops gonna ever get harvested or not. Something's going to come along, a hailstorm and wipe it out. But um, yeah, it's a nutty business where you just don't know if all that hard work you're going to be paid for it. But there's something that drives us and if you get that little bit of encouragement, you, you keep going and you do need to be persistent. If you're not a persistent type of person, it's probably not the right business for you.

Mindy:             Absolutely. It's funny that you bring up the farming comparison because I am from a family of farmers and that's how I grew up. And you just, you really don't understand what fluctuations are like until your entire question of whether or not you get new shoes depends on if it rains.

Michael:          That's, that's perfect. Right. And it's the same for same for a writer. You're pitching these ideas and you might have had 50 rejections and you're wondering, when am I going to be able to buy new shoes.

Mindy:             Yeah

Michael:          Yeah. Well, like I say, you only need one win in this business. It's, you know, you don't need a high batting average. All you need is one publisher. And with, with nonfiction, oftentimes you're going to a different publisher because it's a different topic. For example, one book that I co-wrote is about the first U-Boat to come into the Gulf of Mexico and it, it sinks a freighter with a family of four on board. So you have a World War II story, but right here off our coast. Simon and Schuster, they weren't interested. My editor there is more interested in those more recent survival at sea stories. So they weren't enthusiastic about it, but I found a wonderful publisher with Pegasus Books to do So Close to Home. So, you know, you're out there pitching from scratch to a brand new publisher. Yeah, I'd say over my career I've probably had 12 different publishers.

Mindy:             Wow.

Michael:          Yup. And the, and the relationship with Christy Ottaviano for these true rescue series for the middle reader that looks like the most permanent one. Yes I could see she and I working together on these types of books. Uh, we've got three that are out now and two more on the way. Um, I could see that relationship continuing.

Mindy:             That's wonderful. That's, I hope so. I think that's fantastic. Last thing, where can listeners find your books and where can they find you online?

Michael:          My website, Michael, and then the last name is spelled T, O, U, G, I, A, S dot com. So Michael togaius.com and on that website there's a little bit of everything. There's, you'll see the, the raft and the 80 foot waves where I mentioned the rescue swimmer was in trouble. You'll see that video. You'll see a video of me describing how I put a book together. Uh, there's a place to purchase autographed books. There's, uh, a little bit of about the speaking that I do for business groups that are inspiring stories. Or for example, from the Cuban missile crisis, I do a program about JFK. What were the steps in his decision making to come to the right conclusion to get the missiles out of Cuba without starting nuclear war? So I've crammed a lot into that website. I'm so glad I had help building it because my attempts were awful. All the help I can get, I feel confident with my writing, but just about everything else, uh, I need help.