Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.

Mindy: We are here with a group of ladies that I met 10 years ago when we all were touring together, and at least for two of us, it was our debut year. And we very recently discovered, I guess in some ways because we're not math people, that it had in fact been 10 years. So we are doing a reunion episode. We're going to talk about what it was like then and what it's like now and things that have changed in publishing and the world in general because I want to talk about social media. But first we're going to start... Everybody go around and say who you are and what you're probably best well known for.

Sherry: My name is Sherry Thomas. I write a bunch of everything. My first book came out in 2008, and I wrote a bunch of historical romances. While at the same time I was writing these romances, I also wrote three young adult fantasy trilogy, for which I went on tour with you guys. Nowadays, I'm probably best known for writing historical mysteries. I write the Lady Sherlock Historical Mysteries, which is a gender bending Sherlock Holmes, and that's what I've been doing since like 2015 or '16.

Rae: I'm Rae Carson. I can't believe I've been doing this for over a decade now. Thanks for reminding me, ladies. I guess I'm probably best known for The Girl of Fire and Thorns trilogy and some Star Wars. That's all I'm going to say right now.

Madeleine: I'm Madeleine Roux. I am the New York Times bestselling author of the Asylum series. This tour that I went on with all these ladies was my young adult debut. I had written a few zombie novels to absolutely no fanfare or recognition previous to that, but Asylum kind of blew up. Which was cool. I've done a bunch of other young adult horror since then and then also transitioned into doing adult science fiction, adult romance, and some, you know, intellectual property stuff. I've written for Star Wars, World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, Critical Role.

Michelle: My name is Michelle Gagnon. I am the author of the young adult trilogy, Don't Turn Around series. And also just had an adult novel come out a couple of weeks ago called Killing Me. That's the first in a new series, and it's kind of a feminist neo noir thriller.

Mindy: Can you repeat what you're best known for? That was a great line.

Michelle: Yeah, no. I'm best known for being the oldest of this crew.

Mindy: Yeah, we all toured together in the fall of 2013. I guess I should say, I'm Mindy McGinnis and my debut novel was Not A Drop To Drink. And so we were traveling together for that, for me on my end. And I remember being really excited. I guess this is the first thing that I want to talk about is I remember just being like, "Oh my God! I'm going on tour, and this is going to be fantastic." And of course, Rae was established and well known. You know, Rae is a big name in YA, and Sherry and Michelle are going to pull the adult audience. And then Maddie's new book, people were talking about it already. And I was like, "Oh, man. There's going to be like a million people at every signing." And I distinctly remember walking into our very first signing and Rae turning to me and saying, "You know there's going to be like four people here, right?" And I was like, "There's five authors. How can there only be four?" And yeah, there were four fucking people there. So, I guess if you guys... Would you like to talk a little bit about expectations? Not necessarily our tour, but in general when you're, when you're putting yourself out there and how expectations are really... Can be very different from reality.

Sherry: I have always feared book signings. It might have been an irrational fear, but I think it's actually a very rational fear because my first impression of a book signing, my first understanding of a book signing, was when I was a teenager, and I was lingering in a bookstore in Baton Rouge. I think it was like Books-a-Million that had just opened back then. I just remember in the central aisle of that bookstore, a man was sitting at this table and every time I walk by he would look hopefully at me. You know how it is. If you are a teenage girl and a grown ass man is just looking at you, you feel a little weird. Like. Like, why? You know? So finally this man left. And then I went over to where he was sitting and look at the little plaque on the table, and it says... Oh, apparently he was there to do a book signing. And this whole time I was there walking...

Madeleine: He just desperately wanted you to notice him.

Sherry: Exactly. He just desperately wanted me to even stop and ask what he was doing. Ever since that point in my life, I've always known deep in my heart, I mean front in my heart, that book signing can be a deeply isolating and humiliating experience. Which is the reason I almost never arranged for book signings for myself.

Madeleine: Yeah, they're hell. Like, truly just a nightmare. I think my first one ever, when I was fresh out of college and my first, Allison Hewitt Is Trapped, my first book came out. I actually got a pretty decent turnout. I mean, a lot of it was friends, let's be honest. But like, you know...

Mindy: Right.

Madeleine: Just having your own crew there, it kind of tricks people into thinking you're something. So then more people will sit down. Which is a great thing to know, by the way, if you're like new to this and you're... Always bring some people because then at least there'll be curiosity. But so it's going pretty well. I do a reading, and then I open it up to questions. And I'm getting some good questions. I'm like, "Oh my God. Like, I'm doing it. This is it. Like, it's not so scary." And then this guy had been kind of lingering in the back ,and all of a sudden he just keeps raising his hand to ask questions. And it's like, uh... Basically you are promoting the devil with zombies. And he was kind of sly at first, but then like, tricked me into keep... Like, I kept calling on him, and he just wanted to harangue me for being a sinner, basically, because it was about zombies. So that was my first public reading experience, and it was mortifying. At least you all were so cool that it was like, "I don't care if nobody shows up. At least we're having a good time."

Sherry: Screw the trolls. My God, screw the trolls.

Rae: I had so much fun on that tour that by the end I didn't give a single shit how many people showed up.

Madeleine: Exactly.

Rae: You all were awesome. It's rare, and I know this from talking to insiders at HarperCollins. It's rare for them to do a big group tour and for everyone to get along and like each other.

Mindy: Yeah.

Rae: Someone always divas out. That just wasn't the case with us. We had all these really strong, really feminist personalities, and we all meshed. And it was delightful. I loved every moment of that tour, and I love all of you. And I love all of your books. And I just did not give a single shit who showed up.

Sherry: I have to say, the last stop was at the big book festival?

Michelle: That was the giant book festival. Yeah. Austin...

Sherry: Yeah. That was, that was good though, because people actually lined up to buy books afterwards. That was nice.

Rae: It's not like we had no audience. We had some decent turnouts. I don't wanna undersell. 

Michelle: We had a few people. 

Rae: It ended up being a pretty good tour, and we did end up selling a bunch of books. The value I got from that tour was meeting you ladies and comparing experiences and talking on the plane and all that stuff.

Madeleine: Everyone had warned me how fucking cliquey YA is, and they're like, "Oh my God. Those women are going to eat you alive." And I was like, I'm terrified. I am not good at conflict. I am awkward, and YA is very cliquey and shitty, but that's why...

Rae: It really is. Oh my God.

Madeleine: It's even more incredible miracle that this worked out the way it did. Because like I went on other tours. Actually, I went on another one that was very good as well, and then another one that was not so great. But yeah, it's like I think the fact that all five of us clicked is pretty astounding given that, like, that is not the norm inside of YA.

Rae: I mean, let's not forget our video.

Madeleine: Can we please forget?

Sherry: That was... That was a very cool video. I think came across it accidentally a bunch of years later, and I was like, "We look good." 

Rae: Right? We looked good man! Come on.

Madeleine: I completely blocked that out. And then you guys were like, "Check it out!" Ugh.

Mindy: It is, it still up? Because I know that it got like... It got pulled off YouTube because of the song.

Madeleine: It had to get copyright striked. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all.

Mindy: Yeah. But I remember making it. It was so much fun.

Madeleine: So much fun.

Mindy: I've had the experience of touring. Pretty much every year after we toured together, I toured right up until Covid. And I had like one other where everybody was copacetic, and it was really good. And we actually wanted to hang out together, and we had a great time. But immediately after our tour, pretty much any time I toured with anybody after that, I would be like, "Hey, what's your cell phone number?" And then I would be like, "Hey, let's go out to eat or let's go to dinner. Let's have drinks after the signing." And most people are like, "You know what? I'm good." 

Madeleine: Oh, no. 

Mindy: Don't you know, when you tour, you become friends and you have fun.

Madeleine: Right? This is like a giant adult sleepover that someone else is paying for, right?

Michelle: That's true.

Madeleine: Getting the vibe here.

Michelle: It's funny. I still think sometimes about how like the nicest hotel they put us in was the one we were only in for like three hours in the afternoon.

Sherry: Yes. Yes. I've been trying ever since to find the couch that they had there. That was, like, the best couch I've ever sat on.

Mindy: Yeah, I remember that. That was the hotel that we just took a shit in. Like that was it. Yeah. Basically.

Madeleine: What a glorious shit it was.

Mindy: It was all we had time to do. Like, we go in and we take a shit, and then, like, we basically checked out. And the lady downstairs was just like...

Michelle: She thought we were prostitutes. She was like, 90% sure we were prostitutes.

Madeleine: Have you seen me? No shot. There's no shot she thought that.

Mindy: That was fun. That was kind of ridiculous. Well, that. And, um... I think we were in Denver. I think that was in Denver. But...

Sherry: No, that was in Houston.

Rae: That was in Houston. Yeah, that was Houston.

Sherry: We were to drive from Houston to Austin, and we spent the overnight in Austin.

Rae: Yes. Much inferior hotel. Can I just say? It was a real letdown. To go from that hotel to the one we actually slept in really bummed me out.

Mindy: Did we go to Denver, though, at some point?

Michelle: We did. We did. We went to Denver.

Sherry: I think we were in the Tattered Cover in Denver.

Mindy: Yes.

Rae: Tattered Cover.

Madeleine: I know for a fact we went to Denver because everyone just kept talking about the giant scary horse that's at the airport.

Mindy: Exactly.

Rae: Oh, my God.

Mindy: Okay. So for listeners, there is a ridiculously large, I don't even know how big. Like I don't... Like hundreds of feet. Maybe a hundred. I don't know. But it's huge. There is a huge ass blue horse at the Denver Airport.

Madeleine: Yeah, it's called the Blue Mustang.

Mindy: I just remember driving towards it, and there's nothing. Like everything's flat. And for some reason, one of you was really into the prairie dogs and kept looking for prairie dogs. And it was like either really late at night or early in the morning. And I just remember seeing a humongous horse on the horizon. And I was very tired and we were approaching it, and no one was saying anything about the humongous horse on the horizon. And I was just like, "Oh shit. Am I the only person that sees this thing?" And then finally somebody was like, "What the fuck is that?" It was this humongous horse. But then if you remember, we ended up Googling it, and it's also anatomically correct.

Rae: Yes. Yes, it is.

Mindy: And it killed the artist that made it. Like it's made out of...

Sherry: Exactly.

Mindy: Yes.

Sherry: Exactly. I was in Denver this past spring. And I actually asked my friend if that's true, that, you know, the horse really killed the sculptor. And she said, "Absolutely." Fell over on him.

Mindy: Oh, God. Okay. Yeah. So that was, that was Denver. Like, that's how I remember that horse. And I just remember Googling it and the first return and the images was the anatomically correct close up. And I was like, "Dang!" In terms of just the actual tour, obviously it was so much fun and we had a great time... Successful or not in terms of sales. And I have learned after that that, yes, that's just how it goes. When you show up, you may get 4 or 5 people and you're glad it's not zero. And that has been true for me continuously throughout the...

Michelle: Oh, I'm never glad that it's not zero. I much prefer zero. My worst case scenario is one. One person. That's my own personal hell. Zero. I can just chat with the bookseller for a few minutes and then, like, jet on out of there. But one person. You're both miserable, and you feel like you have to go through it. 

Madeleine: Yeah. You want like zero or greater than ten.

Group: Yes.

Madeleine: Then you can at least like... You'll get some questions. You're likely going to sell a book or two. It's that weird middle of just like enough people that you have to stay and try but not so many that it's going to pay off in any real way.

Rae: Exactly.

Madeleine: My policy now is that if it's less than ten, I'm like, "Everyone has to come sit in the front row and we're just going to have a conversation." I'm not gonna... I'm not gonna put on a big "to do" because I just don't think that's valuable. I also usually tend to pivot to like, "Hey, is anyone here an aspiring writer? Do you have any questions? Do you want to just know about the industry?" Because usually the people who reliably show up to this kind of stuff are aspiring writers or nerdy about publishing, and I think it always ends up better. You always get more out of it. And I think if you can also establish that you're easy to talk to and kind of a chill person, they're much more likely to follow up and follow you on social media or feel like they made a connection with you and then become more of a true supporter rather than just like, "Oh, okay. I went and they did an awkward reading of their first chapter. And then we just kind of looked at each other," you know? So.. 

Sherry: I actively campaign against anybody who asks me to do a reading. I'm like, I don't know why.

Madeleine: Yeah same. I hate it.

Sherry: You know, like...

Rae: Ugh. I hate doing readings. 

Sherry: The audio books sound better. And the book reads better by itself than I can read it. Like, let's just have a chat since we're here. Yeah.

Rae: Yeah. I had someone recently do it in conversation with me. And they hadn't told me they were expecting me to read, and they just handed me the book and I was like...

Madeleine: No! Surprise!

Rae: I was like, "No. That's why you're here."

Mindy: I don't read either. I don't like to read. Typically, if I do read, I use a lot of words in my books. I use a lot of four letter words, and I'm not ashamed of them or anything. But when you're saying them out loud to a room of people and one of them is pussy and you're just like, "eh."

Michelle: That's especially fun when you're in a bookstore and they're having like story time in the next aisle. 

Madeleine: Right. Some family shoppers, you know, wandering by.

Rae: Did a reading last month in a very conservative community. I chose to read a short story I had written that has multiple all caps the word "fuck." And so I basically yelled fuck to my audience multiple times throughout the reading. And afterwards someone came up to me and said, "I think it was good for this community to hear that."

Madeleine: Oh my gosh.

Rae: I'm not sure what that means, but I did get to yell fuck a bunch, so I was calling it a win.

Mindy: I want to talk about social media because Maddie brought up social media. When we first started, so back in 2013, like we had Facebook, we had Twitter, and like I think kind of Tumblr. But it was like that was all we were really doing. I, at least me... It was Facebook and Twitter. And now social media has changed so much. And I don't know about you guys, but I am basically almost not doing it anymore. I just... I almost resent it. Everything is video, and I'm not interested in sharing that much of my life with everyone in the world. So, just like the other day, my boyfriend... We were going to go hiking, and he was like, "Hey." He's always trying to help me out and that's cool. But he's like, "You know, we can make a little video, and you can be like, 'Yeah. I'm getting ready to go on a hike.'" And I'm like, "No. I'm getting ready to go on a hike, and I want to go on a hike with you. And I don't want to think about how I can use that to sell books or create content. I'm just going on a hike with my boyfriend like a normal ass person." So, I don't know. If each of you could talk a little bit about whether you're even still using social media or how you use it or how you think it's changed from when we were working at this ten years ago.

Madeleine: I know that for me... I was actually just talking about this with another author, Mallory O'Meara, who is a total fucking badass. She does a lot of cool nonfiction stuff. But, you know, she was kind of saying like, "Oh, I'm... You know, I'm sorry, I'm so, like, bedraggled. I just... I'm in the middle of a deadline and promoting a launch, and it's just so much work." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to be honest. I... I will do, you know... I'll usually do like a giveaway, and I'll definitely like, be like, Hey, it's coming." In the weeks leading up to a launch, I will definitely like take some nice pictures of the book or give excerpts or make some little like, you know, quick little Photoshop things to put on Instagram. But I have just sort of like dropped out of the rat race of trying to be viral, get on TikTok, like that sort of stuff. Because you just really can't compete with the juggernaut of a publisher. If they want the book to succeed, they're the ones who make that happen. And I've just... I have 20 books out now. I've seen this cycle enough times to be like. "Nothing I personally do on Instagram is going to skyrocket this book into the stratosphere because I don't have the hundreds of thousands of dollars that any of the big three publishers have to promote something." 

And so for me, it's sort of like I now have really pivoted to just not agonizing over it, number one. I'm not going to waste a bunch of my money on it, number two. And number three, I'm just going to put my energy where I know I can best control it, which is like the quality of the book. Because I don't enjoy social media. I think if you like it, that's a different conversation, right? If you like, have a natural pizzazz for social media. You like making videos. You like TikTok. I think like, that's great. And you should do it because you like it. But I just think I've gotten real with myself that like, I am a pebble in a stream, right? And so I'm going to put all my energy into the book. Promote a normal amount, but not kill myself trying to, like, go viral. Do something ooh la la. Like, it's just not going to do much is what I've come to realize.

Rae: Things got really tricky for me on social media when I did the novelization for The Rise of Skywalker.

Madeleine: Yeah. I had your back though.

Rae: Yeah, yeah. Some of my friends did, and I will never forget that. Thank you, Maddie.

Madeleine: Always.

Rae: But yeah, like trolls just come out of the woodwork. And they love to make fun of your appearance, especially if you're a woman. They would, like, find old videos, freeze frame the most unflattering frame they could find. Post it on Reddit. It's just... It was just gross, you know? So it reminded me so much of high school. Like you're putting yourself out there trying to impress people who are refused to be impressed. And if anything, you're going to use what you do against you. And I thought, "why would I put myself through this when I've spent so much money in therapy trying to get over what happened to me in my adolescence?" You know, I don't want to go through this as an adult, too. So, I kind of bowed out of social media, and I just mostly post cat pictures because that makes me happy. What Maddie was saying about, you know, when you have a launch coming up, I don't mind doing... Taking some nice pictures of the book. Reminding everyone that I exist. All that's great, but pretty much I feel like my job is done. 

Sometimes I'll get a marketing plan from my publisher, and I have a little resentment about this, because it'll say something like... One of the tick marks is "leveraging author’s social media platform." And I'm like, "No. That doesn't count. I'm not a self-published author. And the reason I'm not is because you're supposed to do promotion and stuff." So I kind of bow out of that responsibility except for the stuff that I think is helpful. Like I should have a cover of my book on a social media profile, you know. That kind of a thing. Like Maddie says, the publisher decides who's going to break out. If they pick you, great. If they don't, there's not a goddamn thing you can do. Why worry about it? I have my close friends I talk to on a pretty regular basis. I have my close but not nearby friends like you guys that I talk to once in a while, and I have my cat pictures. And I find that that's what I need. So I'm happy with that.

Michelle: I hate doing videos. 

Rae: Oh, right.

Sherry: Yeah, I totally echo that sentiment. I barely take pictures or videos. It's just... I don't even have a TikTok account. I don't... I don't think I've ever been on TikTok per se. I've seen TikTok videos either on Twitter or Instagram. I've never been on TikTok. And I totally echo what Maddie said about social media. Everything. I mean, I would echo what Rae said, except I haven't had that sort of exposure to the worst elements online. So, you know, I haven't had any personal experience like that being made fun of and all that. But I just want to say Maddie basically said everything I would have said. I don't think social media really matters at this stage in our career.

Rae: Mmm hmm.

Sherry: I don't think I've posted anything in like two months because I've been writing and because I just don't have anything I want to say to the whole world.

Mindy: I think about it, and I'm 44, right? And I think about... Am I just getting bitter? Am I too old that I'm just like, social media is stupid, you know? It's just like, you know, when my grandparents were like, who wants a color TV? That's dumb, right? So, sometimes I feel like, you know, I am really missing out on something that I should be doing that could be helpful. But pretty much every author that I talk to is like, "No. It's dumb, and I don't do it anymore." And I don't know. I just... I find that really refreshing because I too Rae have had so many conversations with my publisher. They are supportive. My publisher is actually super supportive of me and I've always feel like I have...

Rae: Yeah, you got lucky.

Mindy: Yeah, I did. And I've been with the same editor for, I mean, gosh, since 2015. I've had the same editor...

Rae: Yeah, I mean... That never happens.

Mindy: Yeah, I know. I'm very fortunate. So I actually do have my publisher in my corner, which is really, really cool. But I am not the kind of person... And we've had conversations and they've been like, they're always supportive of "Don't do anything you're not comfortable doing." Guys, if you want me to do more social media, I'm just going to be like kind of an asshole all the time. And we're just going to broadcast that. Because that's who I am and that's how I act. And I had actually texted my boyfriend. "I am so frustrated that I feel like I should be doing more, but I also don't want to. And my new plan is that I'm just kind of going to be an asshole all the time. And if there's videos of it, fine." And he was like, "So the NEW plan is to kind of be an asshole all the time?" Like, you really don't need to comment whether or not it's just like an old plan or that's always been happening. It is interesting that you guys all feel similarly about social media and like, you know, we're all still here and we've been here. I think that's...

Madeleine: I think it's a bizarre demand or expectation to have of like... You picked truly the most solitary...

Michelle: Yes. 

Rae: Mmm hmm.

Madeleine: Anxious, weird job that like... Of them all. And then it's like, hey, and we really need you to be charming, gregarious, put yourself out there, be vulnerable, engaging. You know, really like hook into youth culture. And you're just like, I never did I ever give the impression.

Rae: Remember being on stage at the festival?

Mindy: Yes. 

Madeleine: Right. Yeah, yeah. It's just this... Yeah, it's really strange. 

Rae: What does that have to do with writing? We were just like playing games for the entertainment of children, which is something they would never ask adult authors to do.

Madeleine: Right. And also the idea that, like, books and YA books don't appeal to the kind of kids we were, right? Which is like, you're inside. You're an indoorsy type. You like... You're kind of weird.

Rae: A little bit cerebral. A little bit introverted, maybe.

Madeleine: Yeah. You're like a little anxious mental health bomb, and you just want to sit in your room and escape for a while. It's just really strange that there's so much pressure put on our type of artist, you know what I mean, to do this kind of stuff when that's like never been what was on the tin. And it's always funny to me. Sometimes I'll play this game where I'll think of authors from like a much older generation that I love, right? And that I grew up reading. And I'll see how many of them even have like a single social media presence, and none of them do. Right? And that was never part of what was expected in the past. So, it does make me feel a little better that I'm like, "Well, okay, A. S. Byatt doesn't have a Twitter, you know?" And you're just like, these are people that I look up to and really aspire to have a career like. So it makes you feel like it's not hopeless. And I'm not trying to, you know, shit on people who do like doing this stuff or have a knack for it. I desperately wish I did, but I have... It takes so much energy just to write three books a year that o then also be like, "Hey, let me devote an equal amount of time to promoting it, even though there's just no demonstrable benefit." I don't know. I can't get myself there anymore.

Sherry: Yeah. For me, for me, social media has always been a professional requirement. As in like, I never would have signed up on my own to do this. So, I always viewed it as work, and I try to do as little work as possible.

Mindy: Rae, I'm really glad that you brought up that festival that we were at where we were basically like, we played charades. And we played... I don't even know what the fuck we were playing. But we played games in front of, you know, like a thousand teenagers so that they could laugh and have fun. And they did. And like, ultimately, I had a little bit of fun myself. It frustrates me. I almost balk when I'm introducing myself to someone and I say I'm a writer, and they ask, "What do you write?" I actually just have come to a point where I talk genre and I don't say that I write YA. Because I am just so used to being dismissed out of hand when I say that I'm a YA author, and I hate that.

Sherry: Well, you haven't been a romance writer.

Mindy: Yeah, that's true.

Madeleine: Try being that too, and then also trying to go into like science fiction. And people are like, "You need to leave." Like, you do the two things we hate the most. Please get away from me.

Mindy: I guess I struggled with more at the beginning of my career, and I was like, "Man. Nobody takes me seriously because I'm YA author." But then at the same time, I am running around on this stage with a funny hat on and trying to make people laugh. So, I guess if I am... Want to be taken seriously, maybe I need to stop playing 20 questions on stage for a laugh.

Michelle: For the record, though, we did. We did kill. We killed.

Mindy: We did.

Madeleine: Yeah, we did crush.

Michelle: We crushed.

Rae: We won every game we participated in because we were all... 

Michelle: We won. We just... We made that other team from... I don't remember if they were from Putnam or Simon and Schuster.

Madeleine: I mean, we put them in the dirt. They didn't have a chance.

Michelle: We... We made them cry.

Mindy: I felt bad for them.

Madeleine: Yeah, we had to, like, guess, you know, like, what each other would answer to certain things, and...

Michelle: It was like the dating game. And we loved each other, so we... We killed.

Madeleine: Yeah, we actually had, like, gotten to know each other. There wasn't a bunch of weird tension. So we actually did pretty well. I also... Like, I've noticed of the people who seem to be very, very successful on social media, particularly in the YA space is like.... It also coincides with just incredible success, right? Your book is constantly on the... It's constantly charting. It's a guaranteed hit, and it's like, you know, "oh, let me like film myself opening my royalty check." And like, check out... Look at my, like, look at this fancy new place I bought with my money. And it's just like, that is so alien to me. And so, like, it also... Look, do what you want, and it's clearly working for them. So I should maybe take a lesson. But to me, that just hooks into influencer culture and like flex culture in a way that I find really disgusting. Especially because, like, I never got into this for the money. Like, I never... I never started doing this because I thought, "Oh, this is what's gonna make me rich and famous," right? I just...

Rae: That was a wise choice on your part.

Madeleine: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Um, but, like, you know. I mean, there's always that dream, right? And I... And I think that's great. I think you should keep the dream alive. But it's just, to me, it's such a weird interpretation of what this lifestyle is. And it... I get that it appeals to teenagers because they are also very hooked into flex culture and, you know, flash and look at my cool author life. But I guess for me it's really hard to reconcile that, right? Where it's like, Well, yeah, you do have a 1 million people following on Instagram because your books are always supported by your publisher and are always given the biggest budget. And that doesn't mean they're bad. I'm not trying to imply that they're bad books. I'm just saying it's like... It's very easy to maintain a happy, upbeat, flashy, sexy social media presence when it coincides with unimaginable success.

Sherry: It's like the chicken and egg. Actually, it's not. It's... It's simpler than that.

Madeleine: Right, I don't think their book's not famous.

Sherry: It's not like their social media... It's not like their social media made them. It's them that made their social media.

Madeleine: Not a one of them did the social media predate their book success, right? It's not like they made themselves famous by having such an incredible social media presence. It's just that like, yes, it's very easy to show off a cool, attractive lifestyle that people want to follow when your books are that popular. And it's like a self fulfilling thing, right? It's like if someone already has a huge name in the industry, then yes, their book coming out will almost guarantee success. And it just like... It just kind of dominoes that way. So... And that's, I'm not like bitter about that. Like, I know that because I have a New York Times bestselling book, I can get a lot more money when I am doing a book contract. That's just a fact of the industry. But I think when you're talking about maintaining this career over a long period of time to try to also maintain a just like, relentlessly upbeat attitude about it is asking a lot.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting here. I'm recording this in my bedroom, and I had to wash all of my, you know, bedding and everything today because it's really nice out here today. And so I hang it all out on the wash line. So everything smells nice. But I'm sitting here, and I'm looking at my mattress. And I'm just thinking, you know, if I shot a video right now... So my dog sleeps with me, and I can see at least two urine stains on this mattress. And then also, you know, I'm a female, and I menstruate. 

Madeleine: Is this an intervention? Are we like... Is this a Hoarders episode? What's happening?

Mindy: Oh, no. It's just my daily life. So, it's like I have this shitty mattress that's covered in stains, and there's literally... Like, my dining room has a hole in the ceiling that has insulation dripping out of it. And that's what I said to my editor when they talked to me about maybe trying to do a little more action in social media. And I was like, "Yeah, I can totally show you my like, piss stained mattress and the insulation."

Rae: Is that what they... Did they specifically request that?

Madeleine: It kind of fits the vibe of your books though. Like, let's be real. It's...

Rae: I think you're getting... I think you're getting confused. That's like an onlyfans thing. That's not a...

Madeleine: It's like a performance art situation where you're like, "I'm just going to live my books."

Mindy: Well, I kind of do. I mean, that's just... I write the way I write for a reason. My life is pretty stark. And so it's just like maybe... Like, guys, you don't want me being on social media the way you think you want me on social media. I mean, like I said, we're just going to go back to kind of an asshole all the time, and I'm just going to be like, "Yeah, see that hole in my ceiling? Pay me more. Okay." You know, it's just... I don't know. It's bullshit. Um, Michelle, you said something interesting that I'm going to hook onto real quick. Um, you said... You mentioned only fans. So I really do feel like at this point in time and the internet and everything being what it is, the only thing that actually sells is sex. I just feel like sex is where it's at. And if you want to promote yourself, you either have to be, um, you know, young, attractive, flirty, open. I don't know. Doing something different than what I fucking do, you know what I mean?

Rae: Can I weigh in on this? Because all of you are beautiful and could do lots of TikTok videos, but you'd have to put so much effort into it. You get the right filter, you know. You have to do the lip purse thing. You have to do your makeup just right. It's just... I find it all kind of gross. 

Michelle: Yeah.

Madeleine: I also think that TikTok Booktok can be kind of a scam. I've noticed a lot of the people who, like, tend to get big followings. I just see the same like five books in every genre getting pushed. And I'm like, I don't know that there's really like space for everyone here and, you know, do what feels right. But again, I just like... I will always come back to the fact that, like, Harper Collins has an astronomical amount of money to spread around to support different authors, and they have to make decisions just like every company does. But that decision at the end of the day is what's going to decide. You know, like I pick up books all the time that I read. I'm like, this is fucking incredible, and I don't know a single other person who's read it or talked about it. This person has like no social media presence. They like... This book is not a success, and it should be, right? And it just... It always goes to show you like it is not a meritocracy. There are a million incredible books that will never get the recognition they deserve.

Mindy: Yep.

Rae: There's this myth, I think, that what happens on social media is somehow organic and impulsive.

Madeleine: Yes. Yeah.

Rae: But even TikTok and Instagram, those big influencers are paid. They are paid by HarperCollins to promote certain books or whatever. Which is not to say that some word of mouth doesn't happen. Of course it does. But the myth that social media is a completely organic thing, that your book, word of your book, can spread like wildfire with the right social media presence is completely wrong.

Mindy: We're just talking about the oversharing part and also the pressure to look good in order to really do well. And it's like I don't give a fuck. It's like I, I don't care in my regular life. I'm not going to... I'm not trying to impress anyone with what I look like. I don't care enough to do that. And I'm certainly not going to do it for strangers. It's just not who I am. So, it's just not a fit man. It's not. I'm not interested.

Rae: Now, for some people it is a good fit. I think Maddie was making the point earlier, if you love it, do it. And I think too glamming up for social media is like a creative exploration for some people.

Mindy: Yeah.

Rae: And I wouldn't want to, you know, shit in someone's chocolate pudding and tell them they couldn't do it. But it's not for me.

Mindy: No, it's not for me either. Yeah. Like I said, I'm on this mattress, and I have dirt under my fingernails because I was gardening before I came in. And I got a sunburn.

Michelle: You just... You're just painting such a gorgeous picture. I can't...

Madeleine: If you need help...

Michelle: Party at Mindy's house. On the mattress.

Mindy: Yeah. I mean, I set this up because it's actually a cry for help, and you guys need to help me.

Madeleine: I was like, just be clear, right? If you need something. We all showed up. So... 

Sherry: A Go Fund Me for a new mattress for Mindy.

Michelle: Yes. 

Mindy: Just a quick... I mean guess it's a lot to ask someone to cover your shit for a decade real quick, but it's... What have you done since then? Where have you been? What are you doing now?

Michelle: Oh, I can go. So I moved from San Francisco to Los Angeles. I got married a second time. I went back to school for a master's degree in clinical psychology that I'm just finishing now. So I'm...

Mindy: Wow.

Michelle: Yep. I'm doing therapy sessions at the LA LGBT Center with their youth and homeless kid outreach. That's... It's been a big decade, man. It's been a lot of stuff.

Sherry: Wow. Thank you. Thank you for the work you're putting in, Michelle.

Michelle: Yeah, no worries.

Rae: You still writing books, Michelle? 

Michelle: I stopped for a while. I kind of... I went through, like, a real bad writer's block right before the pandemic and then during, and I really kind of thought I was done, and then during the pandemic, I had an idea. And I wrote the book just for fun as kind of like an escape hatch for me and ended up selling it like right around the time that I was going back to school. So, for the last two years almost, I've been kind of working on the book and working on the sequel and working on school and doing the clinical hours. And then I've got this damn family that I'm trying to like, keep alive.

Rae: That's a lot, Michelle. That's a lot.

Michelle: Yeah, it's been... It's been a lot. And, and you'll all appreciate this since I know we have a lot of proud pet owners here. I've now have three dogs and two cats. Yeah. Not, not by choice. So I'm just kind of, you know, running a small petting zoo.

Madeleine: Yeah, I'll go. Umm, let's see. Ten years. Uh... I live in Seattle now and have for, like, eight-ish years, I think, we're coming up on. And I love it here. That I've done a lot of work for in sort of the nerd space lately. Um, I did a book for... I did two books for World of Warcraft. I did, um, a Critical Role tie in that came out in November. And I've been doing a series of middle grade Dungeons and Dragons books that I am absolutely in love with. And that will... The final one, it's done. It's, it's just sort of in production. It comes out next year. I've put out a bunch of YA horror - two complete series and then a standalone. And then I'm actually today working on the follow up, which hopefully will be out sometime next year. I'm not sure. We'll see. And I also started publishing in romance. I published two books in adult sci-fi.

Sherry: Are all these books traditionally published? I mean, I know your intellectual property ones definitely are.

Madeleine: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

Sherry: But are the... Are the YA, the romance, the sci fi, they are all traditionally published?

Madeleine: Yeah. Penguin Random House, Harper... Oh, shit. I'm going to forget someone, and they're going to get pissed. Del Rey. Yeah, they're all traditionally published. I haven't self-published anything. Um, it's all traditionally published. I had my 20th book come out in November. That was pretty darn cool. I'm just keeping up. I had... I had kind of a tough year. I had a family tragedy in August. So, I've slowed down a little bit this year. I'm only writing like three books this year instead of, instead of however many I usually do. So but, you know, it's... It kind of goes in cycles. So this year is like a slow release year. And then next year, like uh 400 things come out. That's how it goes. It's like a year where you don't see anything from me, but I'm like busy, busy, busy typing. And then the next year 4 or 5 books drop. So, um... Yeah. So that's what I've been up to. And yeah, I live with my, my two doggies and my partner in Seattle and just living, living the life, you know.

Rae: I'll go. Um, I wrote another YA trilogy, a western. That was a lot of fun. Wrote some Star Wars, couple standalones. Moved to Arizona because I decided I was done with Ohio and stupid Ohio winters. That didn't take, but that was good. It was a good move. We like it back here in Ohio. We like where we live. It's really great. There was a feral cat colony here when we arrived. So, I now have five cats. Five accidental kitties. A couple of them were planned, but that's okay. I love cats. So, I'm living my best life. Um, I had a... I had a rough career moment a few years ago because Covid hit right when two of my hardcovers came out.

Michelle: Oooh.

Rae: And so they went out into the world and then the shutdowns happened. And one book did okay because it was in Walmart and stuff. It was a Star Wars book. It was... It did okay. Not great, but whatever. But the other one didn't even hit shelves. It was... It got to the bookstores. The bookstores weren't open. So they sent it right back to the publisher.

Sherry: Oh, my God.

Michelle: Wow.

Rae: And then the book after that, which I was already under contract for at that time, was about a worldwide pandemic.

Madeleine: Oh, no.

Rae: And I had a come to Jesus meeting with my publisher. Is this really the right book for this time? I can give you something else. We don't have to do this. They assured me that they wanted to move forward. They loved the book, which was really sweet, but it did as expected. I just... I couldn't get traction with marketing. No one was excited about promoting a pandemic book during a pandemic for some weird reason. So my career took... I'll just be honest, it took a hit. And I'll be recovering from that, I think, for a while. I do have a book under contract, but I kind of had to... Between that and some the Star Wars trolling I got and a few other things, I had to take a mental health break from writing. And my publisher has been... 

Michelle: Good for you. 

Rae: very supportive, but I'm starting to get back on the wagon. And I hope that about a year from now I'll have another book come out finally. So, other than the writing, everything is great. I'm happier than I have ever been. I love my life. I have a great partner. I love my house. It could not be better. So, I actually have no complaints when all said and done.

Sherry: You did say you moved back to Ohio.

Rae: We were just lonely, you know. We got there and we didn't make friends because no one was going anywhere.

Michelle: Yeah.

Rae: So we moved back and now we have family and friends again and it's great. And I think we're probably going to stay here forever. Sherry, your turn.

Sherry: I was sort of, you know, occasional YA writer. So, most of my career has been in books for the adult commercial market. I published my first romance in 2008 and my last one in 20... Last Historical Romance in 2013 or 2014, I think. And at that time I was like, I'm basically out of ideas, and I wanted to switch genres. And I got lucky in that 2014 was when um, or 2013 was probably when I was trying to make the shift, that was when publishers were losing romance writers in droves because self-publishing was so good back then.

Mindy: Yeah.

Sherry: And so they actually didn't even ask me any questions. They didn't do any push backs. I said I wanted to write a gender bending Sherlock Holmes book, and they said, "Here's a three book contract. Go have fun with it." So, that's where I got lucky. I didn't have anybody who said, "No. We don't want you to change genres" or anything like that. So I managed to change genres without any resistance, and the books were well received. And I am at the moment writing book eight.

Madeleine: Oh, that's fantastic.

Sherry: Yeah. So when I was writing romance... I mean I was like making put food on the table kind of money, but it was always uneven. It's wildly unpredictable how each one of my books will do.

Mindy: Yeah.

Sherry: There's just no telling. Like, one would do well, and the next one would be like, you know, half the sales and whatnot. But with the mysteries, it's been much more even and it's been like.... I was like, wow! You can actually make steady money in publishing. So it hasn't been a bad decision all around, but I would like to write other stuff also. Just see. But I really envy Maddie that you can be so productive. On the other hand, I think maybe it's good for me not to write so much because I think my brain has an automatic shut down button. It just... It will work this much and no more. Like on any given day or any given month or anything, it just will shut down. On the flip side of that, I've never really had writer's block or when I seriously couldn't write. I just cannot write that fast. That's all.

Madeleine: I've definitely transitioning to slowing down a bit. You know, a lot of self work and therapy has shown me that, you know, kind of doing so much was trying to just fill the hole in my soul that cannot, cannot really be filled with that kind of stuff. I hit burnout real bad this fall. I was just... After my brother passed, I was just sort of like catatonic for months and barely wrote a word. And it was like, "Oh, like something's wrong, wrong," and not just because of like, grief. But like I was doing too much, and it was a wake up call. So, I think I'm really looking forward to a more sort of balanced approach to this job and not just saying yes to everything. Saying yes to myself, and to what I feel actually called to do. So...

Mindy: Yeah. I had a similar experience. I've been doing well. I've been doing just fine. Book a year in the traditional market under my real name, and you know, just kind of trucking along with that. I started writing under a pen name with a couple of friends in self-publishing, and it did okay. Not great, but, you know, just something to kind of do on the side. And I had like in the past ten years, right before Covid, I went through a breakup. So it was the person that I was dating when we all went on our tour. We'd been together for like 12 years, and it just fell apart like very suddenly. Like within a space of 24 hours, and he was gone. Like, he left and took his stuff. And so that happened. And then my dog died, and then Covid hit. And it was just like breakup, Covid, dog died. It sucked. It was not good. But writing, keeping myself very, very busy with writing, was what, you know, kept me going, like through the pandemic. But I got a puppy, and I got a new boyfriend. And, you know, everything just started, you know, from scratch. Mattress is still the same. But, you know, it's like...

Rae: We gotta... I'm willing to chip in for a new mattress. Who is with me?

Michelle: Sure.

Mindy: The sad thing is, is this mattress was actually... It's not that old. It's just that I, I'm not careful with my things. All my stuff. Everything I touch breaks or dies. Like, that's just where we're at. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I've been doing well, but much like Maddie I had, um, last fall was actually like super tough for me. I made the decision, because I was in a very, very good relationship and things were really good and I was like, You know what? I probably don't need these antidepressants anymore. Not realizing that having been on them for 15 years was one of the reasons why I was doing better. So I just like.. And I was, you know, safe. And I tapered, and I did everything the right way. And I was fine until about two months off of them. And it was like jumping off a cliff. It was really bad. And I had a book due, and I couldn't motivate myself to do anything. 

And I ended up writing a book. It's the one that comes out next March. I wrote it in about three weeks because I kept putting myself off, and I wrote that book while I was basically having a nervous breakdown. And then I edited it while I was transitioning onto a new medication. I basically felt like this was a dumpster fire, and it was trash, and it was horrible. And this is going to be like, what breaks my career. Luckily, the main character in the book... It's very heavily focused on mental illness. Not through design, but having going through what I was going through when I wrote it. Everyone that has read it for me is just like, "Holy shit! This is your best book yet." I'm just like, "That's cool. But honestly, I don't know what happens in it" because I wrote it... I wrote it in such a state, and then I edited it in, in like a total, like, I don't know, zombie mode of, you know, ramping onto a new medication. Everyone says it's good. I'm going to have to read it if I end up doing tours for it because I don't know what happens in it. But, um. But yeah, so it's like I'm good now. 

Maddie and I actually connected about a couple of things and she gave me some advice that was really good about like handling the depression and anxiety arena. And I'm like, much like Rae, really don't have any complaints right now. Um, and my puppy, who's of course now a full grown man. He's a Dalmatian. And I was just... I was in California just like 24 hours ago, and a Dalmatian showed up, a stray Dalmatia, showed up at our local pound. And literally, because I live in a very, very small community, I literally had like ten text messages and five DMs. People are like, "Oh my God! Gus is at the pound." And I go, and I look at the picture. And I'm like, "No. That's not Gus, but man, do I need another Dalmatian? Maybe" So I mean, that's where I am. Things are good. I just signed a contract for 25 and 26. So, like doing well. And like I was saying, much like Maddie, I... My little period of pretty serious mental downtime made me go, "Okay, what are you doing that you don't need to be doing? And how much work are you putting into places that maybe you shouldn't?" And the returns that I'm getting on the pen name? Probably not worth it. And the work that I put into even this podcast and my blog, it's like... Well, I'm not making money. I need to only do the things that, number one, I want to do. And number two, that secondly, are lucrative. 

So I sat down, and I looked at my income. And I figured out that after my traditional income and my money that I get off of contracts, after that, the place that I make the most money is appearances. I do school visits, and those are just a wonderful experience for me. I love doing them. So I just sat down and, you know, did the math and was like, okay. I need to be focusing on writing under my real name and booking appearances. So, that's kind of where I've been concentrating my energy right now. I've trimmed the excess, and I just have to make sure that all my efforts are going to the right places. And I'm saying this as someone that might go adopt another dog. So, I don't know. Let's finish up by everybody sharing your websites. We already like slammed social media for a while. So if you would like to share any of your social media that you're active on, of course, feel free to do that. But your website or if you have a newsletter that you use. Whatever it is that you use, plug it here as we finish up.

Madeleine: Cool. I am Authoroux on everything that I participate in, which is honestly, truly just Instagram and occasionally Twitter. Although I'm thinking about getting off of that. It's A-U-T-H-O-R-O-U-X, and Instagram is probably where I'm the most active. You can also find... I have a public email address there. If you have questions about the industry or publishing or whatever, I'm happy to take them. And then I have a website Madeleine dash Roux dot com. 

Sherry: I am at Sherry Thomas dot com. On Twitter, it's just at Sherry Thomas. Facebook, it's Author Sherry Thomas, and I think Instagram is Writer Sherry Thomas. I am equally inactive on all of them, and typically only post like stuff like okay cover reveal, book title, and you know, time to order. And occasionally I will do like you know... Because I cook a lot. We cook almost every day, every meal at home. So and occasionally I will post stuff what I'm cooking, and people who follow my Instagram know that I am the worst food photographer in the world. So, if you want to see some, you know, delicious but spectacularly ugly food, head on over. Otherwise, there's not much content to be had.

Michelle: So, I am Michelle Gagnon dot com. Just my full name. And I think I'm mostly on Instagram which is Michelle A. Gagnon because I had to slide the middle initial in there.

Mindy: Rae, do you have anything you want to share as far as where people can find you?

Rae: Sure. My website is Rae Carson dot com. You know, in addition to this being the ten year anniversary of our amazing tour, it might be the ten year anniversary since the last time I updated my website. So, if you want something kind of vintage, retro, blast to the past, definitely check out my website Rae Carson dot com. Like Sherry, I'm equally unavailable on all the different social media platforms. You can find me at Rae Carson except on Instagram, which I do once in a while. I'm Rae Carson pics. You can find a lot...

Michelle: That sounds so dirty.

Rae: I know, right? The pics you've always wanted of my cat. Just all cat pictures. And I have to say without any bias at all, I do have the cutest cats in the world. So you definitely want to check those out.

Michelle: I feel like "Rae Carson Cat Pics" was probably right there for the taking. It feels like false advertising to me.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah. I have to say one reason Sherry mentioned food pics, and taking pictures of your food and taking bad pictures. The one time I did a food pic, I had eaten like the best possible meal. I was in Texas somewhere. And I took a picture of like the empty plate, and I was like, "Hey, this is what I ate, and it was awesome." Everybody was like, "That is not how you do this. You take a picture of the food," and I'm like, "No! It's way better if I'm like, Look, I ate all of it, and it's gone now." And everybody was like, "No, you're wrong. That's not how you do social media." And I was like, "Okay, I'm never trying that again."

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.