Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.
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Mindy: We’re here with Robert McCaw, author of The Koa Kane series and Robert started his publishing journey in self publishing and then moved on to traditional publishing. So why don't you tell us a little bit about that before we get into talking about the Koa Kane series, talk to Me about First of all, your decision to self publish. Was that always the goal Or did you attempt to find an agent first and then choose to go the self publishing route?
Robert: Well, let me back up just a little bit and tell you a little bit about the journey. It's hard to answer that question without putting the book in context. The first book, I went to Hawaii and fell in love with the Place. I began to do a lot of research - reading books, traveling around the islands, talking to people. There was something magical about the islands, and I decided that I needed to share my passion with readers. I've always been interested in mysteries. I've always been interested in puzzles. My legal career, which was very active at the time, was on the litigation and investigation side. I decided that the way I was gonna tell the Hawaii story was through a detective, and I invented this, Uh, this character called Kane chief detective of the Hilo, Hawaii, police.
The first book was very deep into Hawaiian history, Hawaiian archaeology, the ancient Hawaiian people. I worked on this book for 20 years. I literally would do a chapter, or sometimes a half a chapter, or sometimes just a page, and then I go back to work. It took me until after I ultimately retired to finish the book, and at that point I took and I went to a whole bunch of agents. I tried to get a publisher for the book. I wasn't successful. I found the whole process to be very disheartening, these letters to agents. Or you submit the manuscript you never hear back. If you're lucky, you get a rejection.
Here, I had this wonderful book. I couldn't get it published. And so I said, I'm going to do this myself and I made a very important decision at that point, which was that I was going to self publish it as professionally as possible, and I used one of the high end services. That's, in my view, one of the major factors that ultimately led me to be able to get a publisher. The first book was really professionally done. It was properly proofread. It was properly formatted. It was well edited. All things that I ultimately paid for as part of the publishing package of the book. It certainly was not at that point a financial success, but it was really, really well done, and it got good reviews.
I wound up in a social situation with an agent. I got to talking about the book, he said he wanted to read it. I sent it to him, and at that point I was working on a second book. I asked him if he wanted to read the second book, and he did, and he became my agent. His name is Mel Parker. He's an absolutely fabulous agent. He got me hooked up for the second book with Ocean View Publishing. But that transition would not have happened had not The first book was a good story, but secondly, it was really, really professionally done. I think that's why Mel picked it up. That's why Mel saw the potential in it.
The second book is called Off the Grid. First One is Death of a Messenger, Ocean View, published Off the Grid. Then they published Fire and Vengeance, which just came out this past July. They've agreed to publish the fourth book in the series, which will come out in January 2022 in the midst of all of this, they agreed to republish Death of a Messenger, and it will come out with some revisions just next month.
Mindy: I'm looking right now at Death of a Messenger on Amazon on one of the things of course, that stands out right away. And you said yourself, you made sure that you were doing things the right way, more or less, and it's obvious right away. As soon as I look at it, the cover is fantastic. The artists, whatever feedback you had in the process, does a great job of fitting into your genre. Everything about that cover is very well done. And as we know, obviously what's inside is ultimately the most important, and you put money into that as well, I'm sure with editing and copy editing, as you said. But that cover is how you get someone to pick it up to look at what's on the inside. So I love what you're saying about making that initial investment. You have the opportunity to do this the right way, as you said, and to put some money into it. And it's obvious that you did just by looking at it. This is a higher end product. A lot of people, I think, make the mistake of thinking that they're going to publish something, self publish something and make money right away and that that simply isn't true. If you want to do it right, as you're saying, there is an upfront investment. So can you talk a little bit about the choices that you made to do it the right way and the upfront investment?
Robert: You know, when I started to look at the question of self publishing, there were lots of options. Basically, you could do this almost for free. If you wanna do it as an e book on Amazon. Basically, all you have to do is to get it properly formatted and do some kind of cover and get it to Amazon. But if you do that, then you're going to have to assume the whole burden of proofreading it, of formatting it, of editing it. And I wanna, at some point in this conversation, would love to come back to editing a little bit because I'm a phenomenal believer in the importance of editing.
You have to do all those things yourself. You have to do your cover design, copyright, all of those things. Most new authors don't really have the experience to do all of those things, and do them all really professionally. I certainly wasn't in a position where I thought I could do all of those things. I started looking around. I found Mill City out of Minneapolis, which provides, at least at that time did provide. I haven't used them in a number of years now, but at that time they provided a whole suite of services, everything from setting up your website to editing your book, uh, to publishing it.
And I wanted, among other things, at that point, a print version. So instead of just an e-book version, I ultimately chose them. They did a really, really fine job. They assigned an editor to the book I thought was extremely helpful. We made lots and lots of changes, and then they did a just a superb job proofreading it. All of this was designed to satisfy my goal of doing it as professionally as I possibly could. And I know there are other services that do that sort of thing. I haven't obviously tested them all. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna look for. If you wanna try to follow the same path that I took.
Mindy: You mentioned editing and the power of editing, the process of editing. You are absolutely correct on that count. I do offer editorial services so other writers will hire me to read through their books, usually just the 1st 10 pages. I get a lot of work put in front of me that it's very clear that they did not even do a spell check before submitting it to me to do an editorial pass on. That, obviously, is something that you could do on your own. And there are many, many steps in the editing process that you can save yourself with just by using some really free resources to know how to use punctuation and grammar properly. And then, of course, there's the next level of hiring someone else to take a look at your work. Tell me about that editorial process for you, and I know you have a career both in the military and in law, where details matter so much. I'd love for you to talk about those areas, editing details dotting your I's crossing your t’s and maybe how your personal background ties into that for you.
Robert: Okay, I'd be happy To tackle that. Let me start by saying, I practiced law for a long time at a high level and had lots of important clients and was involved in a lot of front page stories over the years. I never gave a draft brief or a draft motion to another colleague to read without expecting them to improve it. That's the only purpose in giving it to them to read. And when they gave me something to read, I knew that their expectation was that I was going to try to make it better. I'm fond of saying that one of the most beautiful gifts that anyone can give another person is to give them a new perspective, a different perspective, because we're all in our little boxes and we all look at the world through the exit to that box. There's a lot we don't see and there's a lot that we put down on paper that we don't particularly see all of the various ways in which it could be interpreted, all the ways in which it could be offensive to some people.
Getting that second look is just enormously valuable in improving my writing, at least I certainly think that's the case for most people. I once went to a program where one of my Panelists, took the position that he wrote stuff, wrote it for the first time. He never edited it, and he wouldn't let his publisher change anything. I thought to myself, I'm not sure I want to read those books because I really, really believe in editing. And I've got friends who will read things and give me their thoughts. Most important of all, my wife is quite a terrific editor, she reads. She marks it up, tells me where I'm wrong or where I have created a misimpression or where I've done something that someone may regard is offensive, and I might not change it. But I've become aware of the fact that the language has a certain meaning or it has a certain form and content to it. I find that enormously valuable.
That's what I put into the category of substantive editing. You're changing the scene. You're changing the dialogue, shaping the characters. That's all, in my view, substantive editing. You were mentioning something else, which is what I call technical editing, which is spell checking and grammar checking and proofreading. One of the things that I've done is I've discovered some tools. They're really useful on the technical side. Word will pick up the spellings for you. At least some of them don't count on it for doing everything, because it will make lots of mistakes. There's a program out there called Grammarly, very effective in improving your writing. One of the things it does, for example, is pick up every single instance of passive voice. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to change it every time. But you are at least aware that that's what you're doing. They’re suggestions that bring something to your attention so that you can change it or not change it.
Another thing I have found is a wonderful proofreading tool. If you use Word, use the readback function where it reads back your work aloud. It's rather time consuming, but it picks up all kinds of word mistakes. The article is misplaced, or there's an article where there shouldn't be, catch very awkward phrases or other things that are clearly wrong. And if you're willing to sit there and listen to it and watch the script as it goes by It's a very effective proofreading tool.
It reminds me of my old days in the law firm where when we would finish a brief, we would have it proofread. Two assistants would sit down across the table from each other and one would read and the other would check, and then they would reverse roles. The second one would read in The first one would check. It's very much like that, it was a very professional way of proofreading.
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Mindy: You were speaking about being on a panel with someone who definitely seemed to feel as if they were able to produce something from the beginning that was spotless. That doesn't work that way. I've had the opportunity To be on many, many panels and speak with many writers, both published and aspiring over a long period of time here, and I have not yet run into someone that took that position so strongly.
However, it's very common to run into the perception that when you have an editor, when you enter into the traditional publishing process that your editor tells you what to do or that your editor changes things without your consent or that you have lost control of your manuscript once you enter into a traditional publishing relationship. And my experience has been completely the opposite of that. My editors. I've had three or four different editors in the traditional publishing world in the Big Five publishers, and every one of them, without exception, has said in the end, this is your story. It has your name on it. You are the final word, and you will decide what is printed. However, I'm a professional, this is what I do for a living, and this is my opinion about this particular paragraph story, whatever.
I see a lot of people entering into the world of publishing with a prejudice against editors in the traditional setting, and I see a lot of people choosing to just jump into self publishing from the beginning because they have a misconception about the traditional publishing relationship. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, as someone that has both published with full control of their own manuscript and then someone that has worked with an editor and esteems the editing process.
Robert: I think everything that you've just said is right. But I also think there is another reason why people shy away from editors. When you write something, it's typically very personal. You've put a lot of yourself into it and then you give it to someone else. And if there are any good as an editor, they're not gonna like everything that you did and they're going to come back at you. There is something a little bit intimidating about the process. There's a little something that maybe a little bit demeaning about the process because you're putting yourself out there, you're exposing yourself and your subject to criticism is really what you're doing. I think one of the things that you really have to do is do you have to get into a mindset that says I want you to criticize it. That's the Only way that it gets better.
And I agree with you. I have never had an editor who said, You have to do this in terms of the substantive side of editing, my experience has been, sometimes it's painful when somebody says this part of the story just really doesn't make sense. Chapter six contradicts Chapter one. Those are painful discussions. On the other hand, that's what makes it better. You don't want to publish Chapter six if it contradicts Chapter one, unless you've thought about it and there's a reason for it. You wanna be aware that that's what you've done. And I think it's a rare author who is aware of all of the meanings of every paragraph in a long book. Every author is helped by at least having somebody point out a character Isn't consistent or the character, doesn't really work or a scene has flaws in it. Quite frankly, that's one of the things my wife does really, really well, she says. Wait a minute, this doesn't sound right. This isn't the way people talk. This isn't the way people act, and that's valuable. That's extraordinarily valuable. But it hurts a little bit.
Mindy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are absolutely right. about it hurting a little bit. I've been on both sides of the desk there. I work editorially with writers, but I also of course, am a writer and make a living that way. So I always tell my clients when I'm sending them feedback that the typical reaction when you receive an edit letter is that first you get angry. Edit letters can be fairly long - possibly as long as 10 to 15 pages - of things that are wrong with your work and things that need to be fixed. It is painful number one, but it also makes you feel like this effort, this grand effort you have put into writing a novel that took you however many months or years has been wasted, and you just... it gets like, right under your skin.
That's in my experience. Your first reaction is that you get your back up. You don't understand me. You don't understand what I'm trying to do. You just have a reaction. That is a very typical reaction to criticism, and that is a very common initial reaction, especially if you haven't been receiving criticism much as a writer. Once you get in the game and have been in the game for a while. You grow a thicker skin, you become better at receiving criticism, and you have that flare, always when you first read the edit letter of a little bit of anger and resentment, and then you're sad for a few days and you may drink a little bit. Or I have a friend - I tell this story often - I have a friend that goes out and buys a small sheet cake. As soon as she gets her edit letter, she doesn't read it. She goes out and she buys a cake. And then she tells herself she gets to eat the whole cake while she reads the edit letter so that it's just like here's a reward to balance the pain of your edit letter, I think that you're absolutely right and that it is hard to receive criticism. Criticism is the only thing that will make your work better.
Robert: That's absolutely right, and I had the advantage of coming from a law practice situation that thick skin developed very quickly. Your colleagues, who were very smart and very talented, came back at you and said there's a better way to do this many, many times they were absolutely right. There was a better way to do it. The same thing is true about almost anything that you, anything that you write is all about a mindset. I think of getting to the point where it's never fun to Take the criticism, but you have to welcome it.
Mindy: Your experience in the military, too. You have to have a thick skin to be in the military. I was a military wife for 10 or so years, so I'm, you know, familiar with the setting. And if you can't accept criticism in the military, you're not in the military.
Robert: True, it's actually interesting. I, uh, in all of the books, all four of them, one of the other things I really believe is that I think you have to own your material. That's something very important to understand from the outset. It shapes what you choose to write, and I could write about orthopedic surgery, about which I know nothing. I would spend weeks researching it. I still wouldn't get it right. I might get the basic principles right. What my law partners used to call the music of the situation. There's no way that you can really grab the music of a situation unless you've spent a lot of time either in that situation or really, really digging in in terms of research.
When I'm writing about Hawaii, I'm writing about experiences that I've had, places that I have been. I go and I sometimes take cell phone photographs of the scene that I think I'm going to use in the book so that I can come back and I can pick out tiny little details that give it authenticity. I have used my legal experience in the books. I've used my military experience in the books. Other experiences that I've had in life meet people and they become characters in my books because then I know them. I know what they look like. I know how they talk. I know Ah, a little bit about their perspective on life. And those are the kinds of things that I think make stories interesting that draw readers in.
I've got one character who's one of my favorite characters. He's a 7 ft tall Hawaiian. He's a fishermen and an auctioneer and I met him one morning in Hilo, where he was conducting an auction. And I found the whole process just absolutely fascinating. The language, the buyers, the fish, the way the whole thing was orchestrated. It was like a big dance, and I studied it. I went back several times. I watched him on a number of occasions. I took some pictures. He becomes a really interesting, really fulsome character in the story, but that's because I got to know him. I owned my material. And the same thing is, I think, true for most writing. You really have to dig in and know your material that contributes to what you choose to write about.
Mindy: They say, Write what you know. I think that that is great advice to begin. But I always think as human beings, My goal is to always be learning.
Robert: I agree with that as well.
Mindy: Yeah, I don't want to only Ever write what I know and end up recycling things. My knowledge is not vast. It's more specific. So I'm always attempting to learn something new, like you're saying everything for you, with this particular series kicks off by going to Hawaii and having these experiences and as you're saying, before meeting this person or having that experience, I doubt you would have a written a character that was a fisherman auctioneer. And now you get to do that because you opened yourself up to new experiences and new people.
Robert: Absolutely. I warned my friends. Part of you might wind up as a character. The other thing that is particularly interesting I think, about the Series is that what I've tried to do in the Series is to make Hawaii itself into a character. In the book, there's a point at which you move as an author from a setting to a place where the setting becomes a part of a character. It kind of interacts with the human characters it takes on a life of its own. There authors, many authors who have done that. I guess maybe the most well known is probably James Michener. That's one of the things that I've tried to do in these books, and that requires you to really dig in to meet some of the locals, to talk to some of the cops, to study the background, the geology, the geography until it sort of just oozes out of the pores of the book.
Mindy: When you're talking about literature of place like that. Yeah, Michener is the crowning example, I think he’s just amazing. And he does such an excellent job of showing how the setting and the place is, in fact, a character of the book. But it is the Touchstone for everyone and everything in the novel, and you can do that in so many ways. Most of my books are set in the Midwest. Most of them are set in Ohio. But I'm always writing about small towns, usually socio economically challenged areas, because that's where I'm from. And that's where I grew up, and that's where I live. I'm always writing from the perspective of everyone knows everyone. Nobody has any secrets. You probably had a graduating class of about 70 people.
That will always greatly inform everything that I write because it's my own background. But also I don't see it represented enough or represented correctly very often. Most of the time, when I see the Midwest or Appalachia represented it's really stereotypical. So I am, I'm always really, really representing literature of place, but as an understatement. As a vein through all of my work, but subtle. You know, Michener sometimes literally opens the book with explaining the geology of the place and how it came to be formed in terms of, like, the beginning of time. And it's all fascinating and wonderful in a lovely way to really ground the reader that is literature of place in the most absolutely literal sense.
Robert: A lot of Hawaii is defined by its geology, especially the Big Island, which is still undergoing geologic change. Even in the last two years. The ancients didn't understand geology as we understand it, they created legends. Most famous of the Hawaii Legends is probably Pele, who is the goddess of fire and vengeance. And she plays a great role in the books because people talk about her and because she is literally the ancient explanation for the geological events. And there are these wonderful stories about how she extracts her vengeance on people who cross her. If you go to the Hawaii Volcanoes National Park, which features in several of the Koa Kane books, you'll find that people go to the edge of the crater and they leave gifts for Pele. The ancients delivered tea leaves. More modern people have left bottles of gin for her.
Mindy: I think it's a lovely way, especially in writing a series as you are. I think it is a lovely way To tie everything together, not only with setting but also, as you were saying, recurring characters. And you establish that cast and your readers will return for more.
Robert: That's the goal is to make those characters interesting and also to make them alive in the sense that they develop from book to book. And they developed within the books. You want your reader at the end of the book To be sad that the book is over and that the character is no longer part of their lives. Or at least there's no continuing part of their life for that character until they pick up the next book. That really ought to be your goal with respect to the development of your characters. And the same thing is true, if place is a character, then that place gets developed as it should.
Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online and where they can buy your books?
Robert: They’re on all of the e book Internet sites. You can get them all on Amazon. With respect to me, it's pretty easy. It's www Robert McCaw.com That's MCCAW. That's my website. There's lots of material on there. Dozens and dozens of reviews. You could buy the books there as well.
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Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.