R.S. Mellette, Matt Sinclair & Elephant’s Bookshelf Press on Indie Authoring & Publishing

Mindy:         Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: So we're here today with two guests, and if you recall from a former episode with MarcyKate Connolly, we talked about AgentQuery Connect, which was a forum that was very active 10, 15 years ago, where a group of us all met, came together, and all of us have achieved different forms of success in different arenas of publishing. Today I have Matt and Robert who have had success in the indie publishing arena. That is an arena that I dabble in as well, and I wanted to have them come on and talk because Robert is an author and then Matt runs his own publishing company. So if each of you would like to just begin by introducing yourself.

Matt: This is Matt Sinclair, I'm the president and Chief Elephant Officer of Elephant Bookshelf Press. The company I formed 10 years ago, last month, it was 2012, that was our first anthology and the first short story in that anthology was written by our wonderful host, Mindy.

Robert: And Robert Mellette. I write as R.S. Mellette. The books that I have published are through Elephant’s Bookshelf Press, so I'm very happy about independent publishing as none of my stuff tends to fit in the large commercial publishing world. I'm the author of Billy Bobble Makes a Magic Wand and Billy Bobble and the Witch Hunt, the newly out, Kiya and the Morian Treasure.

Mindy: I think you make a really good point about finding a place for books that aren't necessarily fitting inside those pre-approved niches that the traditional publishing industry likes to use to do their marketing. Robert, why don't you talk about that a little bit, like what you write and why you weren't necessarily finding any traction in the trad world?

Robert: It's really weird, the traditional publishing world because you really do have to thread a needle from miles away. It's so hard, but if you just look at Kiya and the Morian Treasure, it came about because I was working on Xena: Warrior Princess, and I was writing the Xena Scrolls for the website, which was basically a way of recapping the episodes, but with modern day characters arguing about the translations of these ancient scrolls So it was kind of fun and tried to get a publishing deal with Universal. Well, Universal Merchandising was fighting it out with Universal New Media about who would own this, and I lost the fight, no deal was made. So I moved the characters into outer space and that became Kiya and the Morian Treasure.

Now, as I was getting it published, I got an agent. I was going to the editors, this was a good book, but the editors would all come back saying – I love this, but it needs a boy character. What do they always say? The girls will read books about boys, but boys won't read books about girls.  That's the line and they will not change it. No, I think what you're saying is that girls will read action books, but boys won't read romances, 'cause that's kind of what I was getting out of it, and I wasn't sticking to my guns and being all - no, I will not change my work, it's my work! 

I tried, I tried to change it. It would fall apart, I'd put it back together. I tried so hard to meet their standards. It just wouldn't work. I kept getting back – I don't know what shelf it goes on. Middle grade or YA? Its science fiction- put it on the science fiction shelf. Where’s Hunger Games? It's a very frustrating battle, and I don't bequeath those editors. They all have to keep their jobs, they all have to put their kids through school, they've got their things to do, that's their job. But they very much need a Matt Sinclair and Elephant’s Bookshelf Press to relieve that pressure valve. Because I think the audience, they don't want another forced romance, they don't want another, Oh, what boy will she choose book? They want something fresh and something new, and you need Matt to do that.

Mindy: You're right, tat old school mentality that is really entrenched, that won't budge, and there is a feeling that boys don't read books either number one, written by a women or featuring girls as characters. I'm here to tell you that's simply not true. I think trade publishing still believes it, but a lot of my readership is male. My publisher does a very good job of number one, trusting me. Number two, putting gender-neutral covers on my books. Anyone can carry around my book and read it, a boy doesn't have to feel like he's carrying around a girl book. But you're right, there are those... I don't know what shelf it goes on, that's the primary consideration, you're right. They wanna sell books, they've gotta know where they're gonna put it in the bookstore, and if it doesn't fit nicely somewhere that is a roadblock for your book. It is unfair from the creative side, but from the business side of it, it is a consideration. Matt, do you wanna talk about how the indie world can help alleviate that?

Matt: I would also say that they're not wrong. It is hard to identify which shelves books should belong to. I wish Billy Bobble, which is a really great story, I wish I had a better place to put it in terms of shelf myself. The difference is, the vast majority of what we do with Elephant’s Bookshelf Press is sell books online. And so it's a different type of shelving situation, you had Dave Chesson from Kindleprenur on recently. Quite honestly, he saved Elephant’s Bookshelf Press without him knowing it. What was then called KDP Rocket came out, it helped me better identify categories for these books, and I'm still experimenting on every single book. Like I said, we've had 10 years of publishing now, and I recently changed categories on books that I published eight or nine years ago, because there's still ways of getting these books out in front of people. There are some wonderful short stories, and short stories are a hard sell to begin with, but there are wonderful short stories that have barely gotten any readership yet, because I'm still trying to figure out what exactly is the best way to get those books in front of the right readers. 

To Robert’s point and to your point, I publish what I love, and the advantage is I have a small little publishing company, and I can choose books that might be difficult to place on the shelf. It might be difficult to market, but I really enjoyed them. I'm literally reading Kiya to my kids at bedtime right now. It is a real issue. I'm glad that I'm fitting a niche, as Robert and Mindy are saying, but I would also like to sell more copies of these wonderful books. My chief objective right now is to find more ways of getting these wonderful books in front of the readers that want them and deserve them. 

Mindy: And that is the trick when you are an Indie, because I write underneath a pen name as you know, and I think that the pall that kind of hung over self-publishing and Indie publishing for a long time has gone away. There is a lot of really good stuff out there, equally as good and some of it, if not better, then trad stuff that I come across. But the problem becomes visibility and marketing. So Robert, if you wanna talk about how that comes into play for the author on the author’s side of marketing. When you're an Indie author, what are some of the things that you have found that will work on the Indie side, and what are some things that might work for trad and don't work for Indie?

Robert: It's all the stuff that everyone has said before, you know, if you're researching how to sell your book, you've heard everything I'm about to say. But I'm telling you it's true, you have to find your platform. I 'm lucky–lucky and I worked really hard. There’s still a huge Xena fan base out there. They're fantastic. So a while back, I started joining all their Facebook groups and just saying Hi. That's the other thing. You have to be honest, you're selling a book, you've gotta get in there and say, Hey, I'm selling my book. You can't get on there and go, Hey, I'm one of you guys! Unless you are. I'm actually a fan of the fans, so I get on and say things about that, and I've been posting on there for a while. In Hollywood, this isn't a big deal, I was a featured extra on Star Trek Enterprise, so I went on to the Star Trek Enterprise fan base on Facebook and said, Hey, I'm selling a book. And this was like a year ago, two years ago. I posted about being on Star Trek and people were like, Oh my God, you're a star! And it's like, no, I was just unemployed and I have a SAG card, so I signed up.So on Enterprise, I became a thing. 

Now, it was interesting, if I tried to post about my book on the Enterprise Facebook page, it would get rejected. So I would go to my initial posts that said, Hey, I'm here to sell my book, and I happen to have been on Enterprise, and I put notices in the comments, and that would push that up to the top and then people would be able to see what was going on in the comments. So there's little tricks like that. I did spend some money, I decided, you know, if I was a deep sea fisherman, that was my hobby, deep sea fishing, and I went out and bought a boat, everybody would be fine with that. That's your hobby. I went out and bought a boat, not expecting to make any money… maybe I could become a commercial deep sea fisherman, I don't know. I went out and spent quite a bit of money on a PR firm. That's actually going pretty good, but if you're hiring a PR firm - one, you are setting money on fire. You're just hoping somebody sees the freaking fire. Please see the smoke from the fire that I have set with his money.

Now, everybody complains, Well, I hired a PR firm, but I'm doing all the work. They're doing a lot of work too. Half of their job is to just get you to a place where you can do the work. I say it's like hiring a Sherpa, they're gonna carry a lot of stuff up the mountain with you, but you have to climb the mountain. That's helping a lot. And you just have to keep at it. It's a job. I get on Facebook, my wife's like, What are you doing? You're on Facebook. Well, I’m working.

Mindy: I'm working as a substitute, and I will be in the school and a kiddo can come to my desk, and they’ll be like uhhhh, you’re on Facebook. And it's like, I'm working. We're gonna do sustained silent reading for five hours, kids. I'm really curious about your experience with PR, because I think that you're right, people misunderstand what it is and what it's about and how it works. I think it's very similar to an agent because it's your agent's job to get you in front of the editors, but your work still has to sell itself. So I feel like with PR, it's their job to get you in front of people that can get you noticed, but then you have to produce the content or the video, or do the interview, or do whatever it is that's going to get attention.

Robert: That's exactly the case. You're also the one that's getting yourself in front of things, but you've got the PR back up. And that's the other nice thing about having the subtle difference between self-publishing and independent or small press publishing. Matt's a traditional publisher. He's a traditional publishing house, he's just a very, very small publishing house, he's not under one of the Big Five. So for me, it's kind of nice to be able to say, my publisher’s doing this, or my Publicist is doing that. Somebody just reached out, I think on Instagram, and was like, Hey, do you need to help promoting your book? I'm like, Sure, talk to my Publicist. I’m on Facebook working, and somebody said, Hey, I need a novelist to sit in on a panel at WonderCon. I message the guy and gave him my credentials, and he's like, Yeah, let's do that. He was another AgentQuery person. Two cool things happened. 

One is that I was at an artist booth, and I was telling them about the book and somebody standing next to me got this weird look on her face and said, I've heard of that. She had not been to the panel, we couldn't figure out how she heard of it, whether she heard of it because of me doing stuff, or whether she heard of it because of the PR doing stuff. I just love the fact that a complete stranger had heard about my book – so something's working. Also, I sat in on another panel and there was a guy from SciFi radio, and he said, if anybody's got an audio book, come up and talk to me. I just finished editing the audio book, which about killed me. And so I went up and I got myself a gig. A lot of writers would say, Well, my Publicist didn't get me that gig, I got that gig. Yeah, but when I emailed the guy, I’m gonna copy my publicist. And two, I had a killer press kit to send to him. I had back up. 

Matt: It gives you legitimacy. Someone else thinks that this is a quality book, this is a quality writer. So I think that has a lot to do with it as well. It's some of the legitimacy that you get when you have an agent. Yes, it's an extra level of security for anyone who books you. It's a good investment. 

Robert: That's the other thing too, is that just because you have the money to hire a publicist. I’m not rolling in it. No, I just had some money saved up. Just because you have the money doesn't mean a Publicist is gonna take you on. I got turned down by three or four different Publicists because they didn't do SciFi, they didn't have space. It's like getting an agent, they've gotta like your work.

Mindy: I have not taken that step of hiring an outside publicist yet, it's something that I considered multiple times for different books of mine. I've never been in a position where I've had the money that I could just be like, Yeah, I'm gonna spend it on this. And I've heard wonderful success stories from people that invested that money and did very, very well because of it, and then I've heard from people that really felt like they had just thrown their money down a black hole. So you've gotta do your research, you have to know that the people that you're giving your money to are going to be worth it, and that they've got those credentials themselves. But also like you're saying, you've got to be ready to do that work. It's them laying the groundwork for you to be able to prove yourself, you still have to show up, and prove yourself.

Robert: You work your behind off on PR, Mindy, so you're doing a lot of the work and you've done it for so long. You've got your own ground work. There really is a thing you have to figure out for each different platform.

Matt: And Mindy has established a brand as well. Whether she did that consciously,  I think her books are all consistent. They can be different genres, but they all sound like Mindy McGinnis. And that's very much to her credit. And that's how her publicity efforts appear to be too, and that's what we're trying to do with Robert's books. 

Robert: The other thing too, is you write so fast. Oh my God, you write faster than I can read. But also, I’m dyslexic. So, you know. 

Mindy: Yeah, I do write fast. What's interesting, 'cause you're just seeing the trad side. So it's like I write very fast, but then if you consider it- since 2018, under a pen name, I put out (with other writers... Let's be clear) With co-authors, I've put out about 20 books. I write very fast. It is a skill that I have built over time. It's partly because I was working full-time. I think I was probably five years into a trad career before I was able to say, I am gonna work from home. And it was still not an easy decision, it was a risky move, and I've been able to do it. For the longest time I was writing in stolen moments. I was writing in the doctor's office. I literally had my feet in the stirrups, getting my Pap last year with my laptop across my knees and they're like, Are you good? I'm like, I'm great. You do what you need to do. That's who I am and that's how I operate. So when I do have free time, I'm like, Well, I'm gonna write and I can write 3000-4000 words in about an hour and a half.

Robert: I hate you.  I hate you.  I hate you.

Matt: I'm basically the anti-Mindy. This is the first book we've published since the pandemic. A big part of that is because the majority of what I did for Elephant’s Bookshelf was at lunch time at my day job and on my commute to and from New York City. People ask, where is your office? I said, first car in New Jersey transit from the 609. That's where I did almost all my Elephant’s Bookshelf  work. And then on my 12-hour EMS shift, I would put in several hours twice a month, and that was how I'd get the advertising research done. Stolen moments is the right way to put it, you do what you can when you can, and to the best of your ability.

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Mindy: So tell me a little bit about getting started as an Indie, I know that you were just getting your feet underneath you, and that things were going pretty well, and then the pandemic hit.. So just tell us a little bit about EBP in general, how you built it and how it's going today.

Matt: Well, the two of you are part of the beginning of Elephant’s Bookshelf. It started with two other writers, Rob Grindstaff has been doing a good job of promoting his new books, also was part of my initial team looking at the short stories that became Spring Fevers. It started from AgentQuery Connect. We just shared some messages between myself and Rob and Cat Woods - ebook publishing is getting pretty hot, this is interesting, we should look into this, and let's all collect writers that we trust, basically have them write some short stories and let's see what we can do with it. And for years before that, I have been thinking about creating a magazine, like basically a literary journal, 'cause I work in the magazine world essentially. So the idea of just organizing it appealed to me and I said, Alright, I'll serve as the publisher, I know more about writing than I do about publishing. I don't think I actually said How hard could it be? 

Robert: Oh, the number of times I have said that about something.

Matt: From there to “how hard could it be” is something that emerged over time. I quickly realized that I had to spend a lot more time learning how to be a publisher, becoming a better editor and still trying to write as best I could. In terms of the fiction, personally, I don't wanna say I lost a decade, but I spent a lot less time writing than I would like, and I know that I'll get back to it, I have ideas that just don't leave my head. 5000 words here, 10000 words there. I know I will be able to complete them. The publishing journey is something that continually evolves, you're continually learning from every success and from every failure, and from every mistake. And I spent a lot of money just trying to get the right tools to get these books out in front of people. I think the best part is just learning, I enjoy learning.

Mindy: How did the pandemic affect the small publishing world? What has it been like? How did you have to shift?

Matt: When the pandemic struck, we had just had our first writer event, if you will. Basically, Valentine's week 2020. Four writers, myself included. promoting the last short story collection, Flight, which was science fiction. And Robert actually briefly contemplated flying in from California for it, which shocked the heck out of me, I'll tell you. I wasn't even asking him about it, as he lives in California, but we had a great time. We had a great response with the Q and A. I felt like we were really developing a readership, just right in front of my eyes there, and I could see where it was going, and one of the other writers, he and his wife and I went out after the event. Elephant’s Bookshelf is gonna really take off now, and then within a month, we had the pandemic taking away everything. As I said, it was difficult for me to find time to do things, to promote things, it made advertising more crucial. And we did okay, initially. You had more people with time to read, but reaching them was just as difficult, and then you couldn't go out and promote in the way that I was just starting to enjoy doing. It was hard, I suspect that's true for many other independent publishers, and probably some had greater success 'cause they had more time to concentrate differently.

Mindy: One of the things that you have to do to balance is of course, where you're putting your time. That's the biggest thing for me as a writer who also is self-published, the money that I'm putting into it is a question on the self-pub side, the time is a question on the trad pub side, but you kinda have to balance both of those things.

Matt: And you have to balance family. One of the things that I loved about the pandemic, and it sounds weird just to say that sentence, is I got a chance to coach my daughter Kathleen's soccer team. And that's the time I wouldn't have had if not for the global pandemic. That was valuable to me. You're absolutely right that it's a give and take in terms of time and where your priorities are at that point in time. I think that from a writer standpoint, there's probably stuff that will emerge from these two years that I can't even imagine right now. I've often wondered even before the pandemic, how is it that people forgot basically about the flu pandemic a little over a century ago? There's very little in writing in the novels of the time, I couldn't imagine that happening after this pandemic, we're seeing writing with The covid story as a key element already.

Robert: They did outlaw spittoons.

Matt: You can no longer spit on the sidewalk.

Mindy: You sure can where I live. And then I wanna say really quick, you talked a few times about your short story collections that EBP has, so I have a short story in each of the collections that is based on seasons. I always see The Fall, which is called The Fall: Tales From the Apocalypse. I'm looking at my Amazon author page right now. Your author page is listing like what's selling the best, Right? So right now, there's $1.99 Kindle deal on Heroine, so it's in front, followed by my book that tends to always sell the best no matter what. Then my two newest. Two that I did not expect to see sitting here – my fantasies are here, which is surprising. I've been doing a lot of school visits, so that's probably why. Even before one, two, three… in front of three of my trad pub books is The Fall: Tales From the Apocalypse, which is the short story collection from EBP. That one is always showing up for me, it seems to always be doing well, what do you credit that to?

Matt: Honestly, I think one of the big things that I would credit that to is, if you remember the final story in that collection was a short story written by a South African writer named Judy Krume. The story is very dark, it's basically about the South American shaman, the tribe is restless, if you will, and it's very graphic, and I remember I was thinking, Alright, don't put my story after that. I was like, You know what, no one will ever read my story, if I did that because people are not going to read past that story. So it became a quick decision as to where to put it. Judy sent a copy to one of the Good Reads groups and said, I think this would be an interesting book for you to review, somehow got them to make it their book of the month, and that was what got it, the initial bump. That's how I see it. That's 2012. We published that 10 years ago in the fall. I tried to publish it on the Mayan calendar end of the world, that was the pub date, and ironically enough, it was also when Hurricane Sandy wiped me out in New Jersey. We did a little bit of publicity right after that, calling attention to the fact that the publisher's home was knocked off the grid for two weeks, just as this book was going live. I had Jean Oram push this across, I went up to my first aid squad, which had a generator and sent her a quick email just saying, here's all the files. Can you finish this? It's already done, I just had to basically press Publish. And so she did that because she was the editor for that particular edition. Got a little bit of a bump from the Good Reads group. 

And then again, I mentioned KDP Rocket. I got good categories on that particular one, it's a post-apocalyptic story, as you alluded to earlier, Robert, it had a shelf, it was easy to publicize. Honestly, it was one of the reasons I chose to do science fiction for Flight. It's one of the reasons I chose to do urban fantasy, which actually the urban fantasy didn't really do well. The Horror collection has done okay at times, that is a cover issue, probably need to change that cover. The Fall has done very well, it's been very consistent, and I owe that basically to readers. that's what it comes down to, there's an audience for that type of story, that type of book.

Mindy: The last thing: where can listeners find you online? Where they can find Robert, your books online? And then Matt where people can find EBP and where they can find Kiya and the Morian Treasure, and if they're interested in submitting, where they can submit.

Robert: Best place to find me is on Facebook, RS Mellette. As far as where to get the book, you can get the book anywhere books are sold. So go down to your local independent book store and have a chat with them and have them order it. Bezos does not need to send another celebrity into space. He can, that's fine. I don't care, but I just assume that that local bookstore owner gets to feed their family.

Matt: And you can find Elephant’s Bookshelf Press at Elephant’s Bookshelf Press dot com. That's the primary place. You can also, if you're a writer and you're going to send something to be considered, you can send it to submissions@elephantsbookshelfpress.com. As Robert said, wherever fine books are sold. 

Robert: And even some so-so books. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.

Fauzia Burke on Building Your Online Platform & the Author as the Product

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: So we're here with Fauzia Burke of FSB Associates, and she is here to talk a little bit about different things involving being an author out in the world on your own, looking to build your author platform, but also looking for those digital tools for effective book marketing. There's so many books and so many authors out there, making yourself stand out is difficult self published or with an indie pub, and you don't have the money of a Big Five behind you giving you that digital boost to give you more visibility. What is like the number one thing that you would say, an author that wants to do their own promotion needs? 

Fauzia: It's a great question. And to be honest with you, so many things are overlapping with traditionally published and indie published authors these days, you know the Big Five is really important and obviously great for credibility. But a lot of the traditionally published authors need to do a lot of their own marketing as well, too, As you know so well, because you do it so well. Authors in general have to be thinking about their marketing. No matter how they published, I would say the number one thing that authors need is their website. That's sort of the hub of everything else that's built upon it. So social media is generally a very sexy topic. I get a lot of questions about it. Most people call me and say they want to promote their book and they want to do publicity. But one of the things that's so important is if you don't have a website where people can actually convert and get more information on you, you really miss all of that opportunity. So I would say their website is the central, most important thing. 

Mindy: You're so right about Big Five authors, traditionally published authors. No matter what the success level, you can boost and you can re-up what you've got. I've been publishing with two of the Big Five publishing houses since 2013, and I do a lot of my own work and a lot of contacting people and saying, Hey, can I be on your show? Or can I come to your library? Would you like some bookmarks for your library or for your classroom? I work every day, but probably only maybe an hour to two hours of that is actually writing. I'm typically spending 2 to 2.5 or three hours just answering emails and setting up appearances - when we used to do those - but just that connectivity, that putting yourself out there and then probably another extra hour on social media. 

So you're right when people talk about social media, that is something that everybody kind of wants to know how to do it, quote unquote “right” and in the end, what people are looking for there is to convert that social media presence into sales, and my experience has been that that's not necessarily going to work. Long story short In the middle of 2019, I went through a breakup of a relationship that has lasted for 12 years. So It was pretty devastating. I had been so active on social media all the time, like always. Push, push, push, push. And I just kind of stopped for about three months. I was like, I can't do this right now. It's just I don't have it in me. And to be honest, I don't think it hurt me. So if you'd like to maybe address that a little bit about like what the real goal is with social media because I don't think it's sales. I think it's connections.

Fauzia: Oh, my God. First of all, I love that story. Thank you for sharing it. I'm sorry for the breakup, but I'm glad you're well.

Mindy: I’m actually better. 

Fauzia: That's always the goal. When you go through a life change, right? You make such a good point. Social media is obviously really important. We all know that, but in a way that readers journey, it's the piece where you create likability. I tell authors almost daily - You are the product, like you've got to get over the fact that you need to promote yourself because you are the product, you know. Yes, you're publishing books, but it's your books that people are going to want to read. So you have to think of yourself in that way. And when you think of it that way, there's a sort of a buying journey in marketing, and I think about it as a reading journey. And one of the phases is actually creating likability for people to like you, because that's when they'll want to buy your book. 

And I think that's what social media does, because how many times have we looked at somebody's feed and instantly said, Oh, I like this person! Even without knowing them, right? We don't know them at all, But there's something about them that makes us feel either seen or heard or like something we can relate to, or their aesthetic or the writing style or their humor. Something about them makes us feel like we're connected with them. In all honesty, it's what the biggest piece of social media is. Of course, social media also drives traffic to your website. For example, 50% of my traffic to my website comes from social media. It has been. For many decades now, social media has been everybody's daily practice and I still hear from authors who say, “I hate social media.” And I'm like, Okay, you can hate it. It's no big deal. You're probably losing that connection with your readers before, during and after, and you're probably losing a ton of traffic to your website. So if you're okay with that, you can continue to hate it. That's really what the purpose is, in my opinion. 

Mindy: Yes, you absolutely, as the author, are a product, not just your books, you are selling yourself, and some people are uncomfortable with that. I understand. But the way that I have come to terms with it is that, you know, author Mindy is a certain person and real Mindy like at home with friends and family - that's a sliver that my audience doesn't get like that's inner circle stuff. So when I'm marketing myself, you know I'm selling author Mindy and I am pretty open about a lot of things in my personal life, just because I think it's important to be with things like mental illness, depression and things like that. But also, it's funny to me how easy it can be to make a real connection. Like, for instance, my instagram is mostly pictures of my cats and my dog, and people love it. 

So I have a Dalmatian and I got him as a puppy right when the shutdown happened, posted pictures of him and his journey growing up and being a little pandemic puppy. Interestingly, in my area, I'm from Ohio, the whole county, there's like a Facebook page called the County Block Watch, and it's just like, Hey, you know there's an electric pole down on this road or whatever. Be careful. There's flooding on this road, stuff like that. Somebody posted about a loose Dalmatian. They're like, there's a wandering Dalmatian at this intersection and I had three different people, and amazingly enough - I live very rurally - but these are not people that I know personally. But I had three different people contact me on Facebook and be like Hey, there's a Dalmatian. I hope it's not your boy. Is Gus loose? And I was just like, Oh, my God. And it wasn't him, he was with me, but it was so amazing to me. Those posts, we're memorable enough, and these people had interacted and remembered number one - I lived in their area. Number two. I had a Dalmatian and number three - his name. People contacted me and were like, Is this your dog? And I just Honestly, I was so touched because I thought it was sweet, But it was also just like, Dang, I mean, that just shows that it is effective.

Fauzia: You're absolutely right. And I think those are the kinds of things, when something like that happens, you start to go. Oh, there is someone listening. There is someone talking. Even if those people don't respond, you're connecting with them in a way that, you know, is funny and touching. And all of those things. One of the things I always tell my authors is that you know, when you're starting to build a platform and a brand and all of that for a while, it feels like nobody is listening, right? It's like they call me and go, I think it's only my mom reading my blog and nobody’s commenting and I just tell them Just keep at it, right? Just stick with it because there will come a moment when you're going to get that feedback and you literally are gonna be caught off guard because you'll be like, Wait, you read my blog? Like, wow. And it happens to all my clients at different levels. And when it does, we have a little phrase in my with my clients that I use, which is, you know, when you have a newborn baby and in the beginning it's all one way traffic, like you're just taking care of them. You're not getting a whole lot back. And then there was a moment where they actually look at you and smile and like, all the world turns around. And so I always say that. I tell them their brand is like their baby in the beginning they’re just gonna have to take care of it and feed it and do all of those things. But there's a moment that it's going to turn around and smile, and so I've actually gotten text from authors who say my baby smiled at me. 

Mindy: That's awesome. And it's a great analogy because it is very true. It does feel like you're just giving for a long time. I started blogging, so I started the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog in 2011. I've been blogging actively since then, and there have been many, many, many times, and I just... I want to speak to that idea that you were saying that you aren't necessarily getting feedback all the time. It doesn't mean that people aren't listening. Pretty much just about every year I say, Am I really going to keep doing this? Because blogs are kind of dead and podcasts are everything which obviously I transitioned into doing a podcast alongside the blog. Now I don't know if this is worth my time and with my effort, and there's really no monetary value to it. So I think I make maybe 75 to $100 a year on ads, so you know, it's really just putting your time in. But I get every now and then, just like you're saying after gosh, well 10 years now. I've been blogging for 10 years. I get that email from someone that is just like, Hey, I love your blog. Or, because I do query critiques on my blog and they'll be like, You critiqued my query, and I just wanted to tell you that I landed an agent today or that my book got published today and so people will reach out in that way. But also when I look so actually, I'm gonna go look right now. When I look at my traffic, my analytics on my website, the vast majority is going to the blog. So people say blogs are dead. And I think in some cases, what they're saying is - comments are dead.

Fauzia: I have to tell you, I am not with those people. I do not think blogs are dead. I do think the commenting on blog posts is kind of a, you know, dated thing. Now, most of the conversations are happening in social media so that I do agree with. But blogs, the reason you write blogs is actually for the SEO benefit, right? For the SEO benefit and for having something of value that people will come to your website to read. Otherwise, you're just basically saying, Hey, I've put up a promotional website. I hope you check it out every day. If there's no new content, if you're not providing something of value, why are people coming to your website like What is the point? They come once. Maybe they look at your book or books and they go, OK, great. And then they go. And then there's no reason to come back if you don't change it, right?

If your website is just 100% a sales tool, then you're missing out because Amazon and Barnes and Noble do a better job of selling books than you will. So if you're going to create something that is yours, it's got… you know, it's so funny. You say that you started your blog in 2011. So I've been blogging for a long time and in fact, I was one of the first bloggers on Huffington Post when Huffingtonpost started, which is I don't even know when and at that time I wrote a blog. This is now God, I don't even know how long ago but I wrote a blog called I'll Take a Community With That Book, Please. 

At hat time the idea that we have to create community seemed insane. I mean, this is literally pre social media, but the idea is that your website is a place for people to gather information about the topic that they're interested in and blogs is a way that you communicate your expertise and your writing style. How well you write if you're writing novels, uh, and your expertise if you're writing nonfiction. But how else are you going to do that? And if you blog on other sites, which is fine, but you lose all of the SEO benefit. The majority of the people coming to your website are coming for your blogs, and they're hearing about your blogs from probably a newsletter that you send out or your social media. 

Mindy: Just to reinforce what you were saying, I'm looking at my analytics right now for my website. It's combined mindymcginnis dot com and Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire. They both go to the same place. This is very interesting, given what we were just saying. My home page for the last 30 days. My blog page views is double my homepage and interestingly enough, clicking on the young adult books... So basically my products, that is half of my homepage. So it just reinforces everything you were saying. Home is me -  literally someone Googling Mindy McGinnis. And then twice that is people coming for the blog and one third is actually going for that product for that book. So it just really reinforces that you yourself are the product, really, And then people are coming for that fresh content on the blog. It's so fascinating. 

Fauzia: I love that you did this in real time, and I think your readers are going to take such inspiration from that because the biggest thing is the fact that you could look at those data is amazing and so many authors don't look at it and don't know how to read it. And in my opinion, that is, one of the single most important things authors can do is if they have a website, they have to know the traffic on the website because you can base decisions on what you do on your website. Based on that data, which is so, so helpful and just like you did, you know you can stop writing the blog, but that's half the traffic you're going to lose. So I don't want to write a blog. I'm like, Sure, no problem. Don't write a blog, but you're probably going to lose half your traffic. Yep,

Mindy: Yep. And you were saying too, just about building. So as I said, I've been blogging for a long time. And so now I have people, authors and publicists come to me, and they're like, Can we get a slot on the blog for this author for an interview or for a guest post? So I'm not even really creating the content any more. People are wanting the slot because they know it gets traffic and it'll get them exposure. So I host the interview or I'll give them a prompt for the post. And of course I still do - I call it the Saturday Slash, but I do free query critiques on the blog. So obviously that's still me doing those. But I had to build it. So it took years. It took probably, I'll say, seven years before it really became other people wanting space on the blog. Um, the podcast has really just started to - because it was me at first, like going out asking my friends. Hey, will you please come on The podcast? You know, and now I have to turn people away. If I said yes to everyone that came to me asking for a spot on the podcast, I would be doing an episode a week, and I simply can't right now. 

Fauzia: This is another, because some of our authors are not traditionally published, another thing to think about. I wrote a book called Online Marketing for Busy Authors, and it was published by a publisher called Berrett-Koehler Publishers, in San Francisco. They’re my client, you know, we do publicity projects with them. I love them. They have an amazing mission. So I was thrilled to get a deal with them and get published by them. But the reason I got it, it's not because just that they knew me, but because they had read my blog. They read my blog and said, You know, we've forwarded your blogs to authors, and I think that having a book with your advice in it would be really helpful for other authors. And so it's a very specific book because it's literally online marketing for busy authors, meaning not authors who think this is their full time job. Not everybody can do that, you know, have a second career. And, you know, as we all know, books are not a money making enterprise for most people. I mean, that was another reason for writing blogs. How many people have gotten book deals because they wrote blogs? You know, blogs on a certain topic. Like suddenly someone said, You know, this is really useful information. So if you're looking to get the interest from a traditional publisher, that's another route that people can take, which is blogging on the topic that you're passionate about. 

Mindy: Something that I do in addition to the podcast is that I transcribe, I mean, I hire it out, but I transcribe every episode and it's posted in text on the blog. And that's all for SEO purposes.

Fauzia: Exactly. I saw that, and I thought that was so smart because that's one of the downsides of a podcast is that the audio is not generating any of the SEO benefit. But you turn that transcript onto your website and then, you know, and then some people actually prefer to read, so it gives readers a chance to enjoy the content the way they want. But also so smart of you to actually get all of that SEO benefit from every episode.

Mindy: And SEO, just like everything else we're talking about. You know, my listeners might find SEO to be a scary subject or like an intimidating topic. But search engine optimization - would you like to kind of, like break that down into layman's terms of how that benefits you and how you can improve it? 

Fauzia: I think SEO has been blown up to be a much more complicated thing than it needs to be. It's actually a pretty straightforward thing, which is when people do a search, does your website come up for that search? That's it. That's all it is. So if you make certain choices on your website, either benefit that search result or hurt the search results, People who have a business doing SEO - more power to you. But I think a lot of authors think that this is some kind of magic formula and that you have to, like, convince people, or actually manipulate people into coming to your website. I am not an advocate of that at all. I think what happens when people hire sometimes really expensive SEO experts to just manipulate the search engine... I've seen these reports. I've seen the Google Analytics on this. The traffic does go up, but people, the bounce rate is off the chart because people say, Oh, I'm interested in whatever they get to the website and go, Oh, this is not the site I was thinking I wanted to be on. So the high bounce rate is actually worse than having people, less people who come and actually are appreciating the content that you have on your website. 

So don't worry about the manipulation piece. The most important thing that you can do is, you know, make sure that your pages are named correctly. Make sure that the pages are not full of graphics, because search engines really don't use read graphics. Make sure you have text on your website. Make sure that you are updating your website on a regular basis and that it's not just one word here and there. It actually is, as I said, posting a blog on your website. Search engines can see that you are actually actively contributing to this site. Uh, they will not send traffic to sites that are not being updated. You're not updating your website. You're probably not going to get a lot of traffic. 

The other thing you can do is make sure that you ask other people that you know whether it's associations that you belong to, or writing groups or whatever to link back to your website. The more links you have back to your website, the more valuable search engines feel your website must be.  

That's why online publicity is so important, and I've seen this all along. I started my company 25 years ago doing online, so it's been a long journey. But what I can tell you is I watch so many analytics for my clients and their websites and things like that. People who have done online publicity, which means that their bios, with their link back to their website, are on different places. Under blog Post reviews podcast, you know video shows, the more links back to their website, the more steady their traffic is, because it doesn't fall off. 

Whenever you release this podcast people might listen to it at that time, but they could also listen to it six months from now, they could also listen to it a year from now. The link that you put to my website is always going to be there. That's why online publicity, in my opinion - of course, I'm biased - is even more important than traditional publicity. You get this kind of residual benefit from online publicity that you don't really get when people just turn the page on a magazine, and then it's gone. For a long time, people used to try to manipulate search engines by putting like, you know, the Kardashians in the keywords, thinking that if somebody does a search on that, they'll come here. But you can imagine that is not really helpful. And now search engines don't even really look at that. The content has to be relevant to what is on your homepage and on your actual pages.

Mindy: People over complicate it, and it doesn't have to be that hard. Another example of generating content, making it applicable to yourself - So like I probably have never mentioned the Kardashians on my website. I've never had anybody come to my website looking for the Kardashians. But the words that I do use very, very often on the website - query, manuscript critique, submission, publishing, editing - these words. So I do a manuscript critique, freelance editing, on the side and I don't advertise. I don't do anything. It's just a page on my website. I have never gone in search of clients. I have always, since I put up the shingle just had people flowing in really consistently and making a decent income off of it. So after about a year of this I put together - because someone asked me, they're like, Where do your clients come from? And I'm like, I actually don't know. So I put together a Google form, a feedback form, and I sent it out for like, a year to all my clients after we finished and of course, asking for feedback on my editing process. But the most important question is, how did you find out about me? And I assumed that these people found me through the blog or podcast, or because they were readers, were a fan. The vast majority of them told me they simply Googled “manuscript Critique” and they landed on me.

Fauzia: That’s because you use it consistently. You do it on an ongoing basis. You're not trying to trick anybody. This is literally what you do, and they found you. But I would bet that that just brought them to your front door, reading your blog, maybe checking out a podcast. Maybe checking out your social media is what closed the deal. That's the thing you can bring people to your website, but if it's a dated website where you haven't really shared any content, it's just a sales page. You know, landing pages are fine, but people aren't making decisions there. You've got to give them a way to engage with your work in a way that they trust you and they like you. And those are the two things - how are you supposed to get that if you don't engage in blog writing and in social media?

Mindy: That’s so, so true. 

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Mindy: So I want to touch on something real quick that you mentioned earlier briefly, that I have only recently, like in the past, maybe two or three years become skilled at which is the newsletter.

Fauzia: I’m a huge fan of, In fact, I tell authors that their mailing list is more important than their social media. 

Mindy: It is. 

Fauzia: Most authors are like, social media is what everybody talks about, and it is true. It is what everybody talks about. But your readers God, I don't even know how many times, but many times more likely to buy your book from your newsletter than your social media. And so I think when authors just think okay, I can just be on social media and then I'm doing my part, and I can tell my publishers that I'm doing my part. It's fine, but it's not as effective. So I'm a big fan of newsletters. You don't have to do them often. You know, I know authors who do them daily. I can't imagine doing that just because I don't have the time. For most authors, if you can do if you feel like you have a really engaged audience and you have really good new content, you can certainly do it every month. But I think once every three months is fine, too. You know you don't have to do it all the time. You just want to make sure that the people who are interested in your work kind of keep an eye on you. Make sure it's not, you don't only send it when you have something to sell. Authors are like, Oh, I have a new book so I'll send it out. But yeah, but that's then it becomes a sales tool. Newsletters, you're basically just saying Hi, just checking in. You know, here's some new stuff I've been working on. Here's some new content I've written for you. Here's a new podcast that I've created for you, like those are the kinds of things you want to have on your newsletter and then when you do have a new book, people are so much more generous, you know, with their attention and their time and their money than they would be if you hadn't been giving them useful information. 

Mindy: Absolutely. And I was doing newsletters wrong for the longest time, gathering emails pretty sporadically and more or less doing an email when I had a cover reveal. And then when my book came out and my unsubscribed levels were so high because people wouldn't remember that they signed up in the first place. I was getting spam complaints. I’d be like, No, you signed up, but it's like, No, they don't remember because it was six months ago. So what I do, I send it once a month. I send my newsletter on the first of the month, and I have a section at the top - Now, for the longest time, I did struggle with promoting myself as an author versus promoting myself as a person that helps other writers. So I ended up landing like somewhere in between, and instead of doing two newsletters, I have one that has a section that is for my readers, and it just has news. What's up with me and things like that, but also like this is what I'm reading or I just finished this book. It's really good. I'm giving it away now and I go to my blog and enter to win it. And here's a picture of my cat. And here's a news article about the best new mystery books of 2021. You know, stuff for readers. Halfway through its the Writer Writer Pants on Fire header and it says for my writers and it's got - This is what's been on the blog this month. This was what was on the podcast this month and then usually an article about writing or publishing.

Fauzia: So you're actually providing things of value and things are fun, you know, obviously connecting with your personal life as well. That's ideal. That's perfect. And, you know, you're basically, I'm so glad to hear that you do everything under one under your name. That's another thing that I think authors get confused about. There was a time when authors were told that they needed a website and social media for each book - craziness. And even now, when authors come to me and say, But I have this business and I’m like everything under your name. Everything under your name. You know, it's one umbrella, because it's so hard to create a following. You can't do it over and over again, like you just cannot do it. So it's really important. In fact, I'm not a big fan of pseudonyms for that reason, too, because it's so hard to create a following. And if you come out of thin air, meaning you don't even start with the network that you know already knows you and loves you, then it's even harder. 

Mindy: I've seen multiple, especially Indie and romance authors. So, for example, they might write erotica under one name. They write cozy mysteries under another. They use the same website. They have it clearly delineated, So it's like, you know, this is a spicy side, and this is the sugary side, right? It's so smart because, like you're saying you're drawing on the same audience, you're pulling them to the same place.

Fauzia: You never know. One might like the other, you know, might want to cross over into the naughty and the nice side, who knows?

Mindy: The only area where that does where I think it’s a mistake is if you write for Children or teens and you also right something like erotic or something adult, then you definitely need to separate those. 

Fauzia: Absolutely. I remember one time I was speaking at a conference and, you know, giving my spiel about why people should really think a lot before taking on a pseudonym, because it's a you know, it's basically you're launching a business under that name. And so you want to make sure that it's not something that you just did for one book that you really think it through. And one woman raised her hand and said, You know, I write erotica. I'm writing it under my pseudonym because of my career. She was a kindergarten teacher and I was like, You absolutely need a pseudonym. Yes, you do. You absolutely do. But you know, that's not the case for everyone. But I think any time that you have a situation or a category that doesn't kind of mesh with the rest of your life or something, yes, I understand that, But those things have to be thought through. 

Mindy: I was just remembering while we're having this conversation. There was an author and I looked it up really quick to make sure I was reiterating the story correctly. September of 2019 there was an article in Publishers Weekly about an author. Her name is Julia Watts. She was a YA author, and she had been invited to participate in a teen lit book festival. And she had at that point written 10 books for Y A. And they did feature LGBTQ characters. No one seemed to have a problem about that. There's a line here where it says even Catholic Library World raved about her books. So I mean, there's an endorsement. However, it seems like the indie bookseller that was supplying the books for the festival, Googled her and found out she had also written erotica. And it became an issue as to whether or not because she published the erotica under her same name, and then she was disinvited from the festival because they did not want to be promoting, literally the name and have a teen or a middle grade reader even Google her, and be like, Oh, who is this that's going to be at this festival and then accidentally pull up some erotica, so I mean that is one instance where you do want to divorce the two 100%.

Fauzia: Under those circumstances, I can understand it, but it is something to think things through as you're building your platform. 

Mindy: And when you say platform like what all would you consider falls underneath that umbrella of an author platform?

Fauzia: I have this formula that I use with my clients with my consulting clients, and it's called Design + Engagement + Visibility = Success. A lot of times when I'm working with authors and they're, you know, working on building their platform or just starting out, they have a million ideas, and I'm sure you've seen this. Many people have a million ideas about what they should be doing. And so I have to tell authors that not everything that they are thinking about is equally important. There is a phased way of building a platform, and it's important for us to focus on it in that phased way, because then it's more effective. 

So the first stage is that design phase, and in that design phase, what I mean by that is how does your website look? How is your social media? Do you have a platform or mailing list? Have you picked one? Literally creating the bones of your platform, because without that, the rest of it is actually a lot of work without actually turning that into something that's going to be useful for your brand in the long run. So what happens is if you have a website that's either dated or doesn't look very attractive or has four million words on it - you know it and I know it - this is a typical author thing. You may do other things, but by the time people come to your website, they are going to feel so overwhelmed and they're gonna just bounce right? So if you do all these other things, I mean, some authors spend thousands of dollars doing publicity, and I look at their website and I think, Wow, I would have never taken them on without fixing this first. 

You can do all the publicity you want, but publicity only really brings people back to some destination. That's the idea is that people will be, you know, might see you doing a podcast on another show and say, Oh, I've really liked Mindy. You know, she was great, go look her up. That's what people would do. And so when they look you up and your website is dated from, you know, 1996 they're probably gonna go. I think... forget it. Or you're not on social media. So here they are, kind of interested in learning more about you and your dogs, and they go to your Facebook page and you don't have one. That relationship ended, right? Like that relationship just now ended. That first piece where you can keep the relationship going is so important. 

So we work on design first, which is website, mailing list, social media blogs. That's sort of like, What are we going to do? Where are we going to do it? How does it all look? Do we have one photo across all channels? Do we have a unified color theme? Do we have a unified look? It doesn't have to be identical, but you want people to be like, I'm in your space. Once we've done that piece, then we move on to engagement. And engagement is How often are you going to blog? How often are you going to send your newsletter? How often are you going to talk to people on social media? How often are you going to listen to people on social media? Because people think you can hire someone to talk for you. But I always tell them nobody can listen for you, which is actually more important work on that engagement piece and honestly, the engagement piece is for the rest of your life, right? 

Like you do that piece, Mindy, and you're always going to be doing it. This is marketing, but for a lot of authors, they are all over the place. And they're like, Well, I'm on Twitter, and I'm like, Okay, well, I'm not that interested in that right now. Let's work on this first. Then we move on to what the content strategy is going to be, creating an editorial calendar. So it gives authors a little bit more structure, for something that feels very daunting to them. And then once those two things are in place, then you can think about advertising and publicity and all of the other pieces, because then you're set to leverage that attention. So if you get a book review somewhere and someone says, wow, this looks really interesting. I'm going to go check the website out or I'm going to follow this author on social media or I really love their blog. I'm signing up for their mailing list, which is the most committed you can get is someone signed up for the mailing list. 

So you want people to have multiple ways of engaging with you once you've gotten their attention and to be, that's what the brand picture looks like. You do it in this order and you do it all the time because obviously it's not something you do just for launching a book. You kind of set this up, and then the launch of the book falls into that visibility piece. But it's not something that you do only when your book comes out. You know, so many think you just do it for two months before and a month after, and then next time your audience is just gonna be sitting there waiting for you to come back to them. You know, that's just not how it happens anymore. So that's sort of my little formula, and it helps authors when they come to me and what about this and I'm like, That's not the phase we're in. And let's come back to that later. Just because otherwise it just feels very overwhelming. And I want my authors to have fun with this because it is fun. You know, it's gonna be so much fun if they just understand the rules and kind of the structure around it. 

Mindy: It can be very rewarding. I mean, like, you get those personal moments and I've had so many emails that begin with, you know, I don't know if you remember me or things like that, but I've even had - because I do interact on social media. I respond to the comments, and if someone asked me a question like I'm going to interact. I've had people - when we were still doing in person events - will be like, Hey, I'm going to be in, you know, Minnesota tonight. If you're near St. Paul come to my signing and somebody will respond to be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so excited what time? And I'll say seven PM and, um, they'll be going through the signing line and usually they’ll mention it. I tweeted you today, and I'm like Oh, Tara! And they're like, Oh, my God! Yeah, I mean, I responded to you. I made a note of your name and you came to the event and I remembered your name and like, blew her mind. 

Fauzia: It's amazing. And she bought your book. And because you remembered her, she's probably going to go sign up for your mailing list, right? She's a connection. And now she wants to. Right? So that's kind of how branding works. It's not some mystery. It's not like we're trying to create a Coca Cola logo for every author, but it's a way to keep a relationship with your readers, and it's a long term investment. It's not something you do just for the launch. It really is your, every launch, I bet Mindy, every book of yours probably does a little bit better than the one before it, and it's because of the work that you do on a consistent basis.

Mindy: For the most part. Yes, I get that consistent, and I and I'm at the point now I think I think I have 12 books out where, um, you know, on Instagram, for example, a bookstagrammer will be like, you know, Mindy is an auto-buy author for me. I've done enough work of putting out consistently that I have people that are like, Oh, Mindy has a book out. I'm going to buy it. Yes, that feels good. 

Fauzia: That's trust, right? And so you have built trust over your career by multiple multiple ways. I mean, you're literally the classic case study because not only have you written good, consistent books, which is all people thought they needed to do at one point, right, remember? Yes, you do need to keep doing that. But then, on the other hand, you've also built engagement with your readers. You've also given them quality material. You've done all of these things that have built the solid trust for you. And you know what's the biggest benefit of having this kind of trust and Loyalty with your readers is that they are actually immune to bad reviews. Your core super fans don't really care if other people don't like your book. This is why you do all that work is that your readers then become that loyal to you, which is pretty remarkable, and it takes a lot of work. Let's not make light of it. I mean, when you started this conversation and honestly told people how many hours a day you are putting into it, I think that's really important for artists to know, because so many of them are like, Well, I can do something for 20 minutes a day. What do you want me to do? And I'm like, Okay, but I'm just saying it's going to take a lot longer. Everything is.

Mindy: And this is something I've noticed, particularly on the social media side, Now with the blog, I'm trying to put up content for people to really interact with and learn from. But on the social media side, especially Twitter for the longest time, like I would get frustrated because I would put out what I felt was like good advice. Really, like, you know, listen to me about publishing or writing or whatever, and people would be like, Okay. You know where they would interact,  I get retweeted like once. Where like, for example, today, which I'll be tweeting this shortly. I just got home. We're in blizzard-like conditions here and I had to run to the store, I needed two things. I just needed two things - I needed a treatment for a yeast infection and then Cool Whip. So it's like, That's what I bought. I bought Monistat and Cool Whip and I'm just going through the line thinking, this is an interesting combination. And I'm telling you, when I tweet that, that gets all the hearts, all the retweets, all the likes, everybody, they're all over that. So it's like, you know, you don't have to put your... your tweet is not going to win a Pulitzer. 

Fauzia: In fact, there was this funny cartoon. I saw it on The New Yorker. This was a few years ago, maybe even 5-6 years ago. But it was this man sitting at a computer, you know, typing and uh, really frustrated. And the bubble says, “Two Likes? Two likes? That post took me two hours to write!” Yeah, that we all understand that. But I think one of the things about posting something like your shopping list is that it's so real it makes people feel like, Hey, that could be me. You know? They feel a connection for sure, and not everybody is comfortable with that. And not everybody is good at that. I mean, I've worked with authors who have 200,000 people following them on Twitter that do not result in 200,000 sales. So it's not really the number of people. It's the engagement of the people who are actually following you. That is so much more important. Of course, you know, everybody likes to have the big numbers, so that's kind of what a lot of times publishers are also chasing. So everybody's like, Oh, I need this. Otherwise I don't get a book deal now I think people are starting to realize that it's the mailing list where it's all at. 

Mindy: It's the quality of the interaction. When I speak about things like, you know, here I am tweeting about a yeast infection. You know, if I wrote for middle grade, I wouldn't be doing that. But I write for YA, and I write really edgy stuff. I was a speaker at a conference for librarians. I said the eff word kind of by accident, but you know, it just naturally came out. We get feedback and it was, You know, it was a room full of adults. I got feedback, and the vast majority of them were like, I'm so glad that Mindy is herself and is comfortable and it reflects in her books and etcetera. And I did have one person say that was really unprofessional. I didn't like it. She said the eff word. And I was like, Well, that's fair. Is it professional? Probably not. Is it also an active reflection of what you're going to see in my books? Yes, it is. 

Fauzia: So you're probably not the reader of my books, you know, exactly. You can't be all things to all people. One of the things that I really work on with my clients is making sure that we're very clear about our audience. You know, when we don't know who your audience is, you kind of like are all over the place. You just don't have an anchor. In my book, I have a worksheet. People can actually fill it out. And, you know, we don't know for sure. Of course, people. If they looked at data, they would know a lot more information. But even without that, artists do have an instinctive idea about who their readers are. And if they just push themselves, they can actually get a pretty good feel for where, you know, if you just ask them. Is it predominantly male or female? That your audience, you know, and they'll be like, Oh, I think it's probably this. Is your audience between 18 and 25 or are they between 55-70? And they pretty much have an idea. It gives you so much balance in terms of your marketing efforts, because if you are thinking, your audience is 18 to 25. But you’re marketing like you’re marketing to the 50 to 70 year olds, yeah, you're not gonna make it right? It's not gonna work. You've got to market to your demographic, to your audience. No one needs to do all things. 

Mindy: Interestingly, you know, Tik Tok has become the big thing, and I have people ask me, Are you on Tiktok? And I'm like, No, because I'm 41. 

Fauzia: I hear you, Mindy, but I think it's going to blow up in the next couple of years, and I know it is moving in that direction. But it's not for kids anymore. 

Mindy: That's true. So like, for example, Facebook changed dramatically. The teens are not there anymore. I have a huge strong following on Facebook because a lot of my readers are also adults, Librarians, teachers, right? 

Fauzia: And parents. So, yeah, absolutely. You are so clear about your audience. And I think that makes all the difference in the world to, like, really have that handle on it. But you're right, Tiktok and now Clubhouse is pretty cool. And we'll see that it takes off and whether it's going to, you know, it's always fun because I've been doing this for so long now, you know, god, 25 years. I've seen a lot of the platforms come literally before my eyes and see what takes off and which ones don't. And Google Plus was a disaster, as we all know.

Mindy: Terrible. 

Fauzia: I love these kind of digital tools because you kind of see which ones are resonating. Why they're resonating. Why now? So it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

Mindy: It is a good point that you make because you don't know what the next thing is going to be. And so I make it a point, like if something... I have a Clubhouse account and I've never used it yet. I mean, it kind of just became a thing. I try to get in if there's something that looks like it might be big now, TikTok not so much, but that's like I said partially because also, like when it started, it was so much about dancing, and I have no moves. Things like Clubhouse. And then there was something that was supposed to be the new Facebook that was called Ello. That was around briefly. I go in and I get my name. 

Fauzia: That's great. That's so smart. You make a really good point that you do need to grab your name, especially if you have a common name, so you definitely want to grab it just in case. But the other thing, because authors just feel very overwhelmed. They're like, I'm just starting to get a handle on Instagram, for God's sake. I generally tell them that they don't have to be an early adopter, but yes, you're right. You want to go get your name At least you know as soon as you can, just in case.

Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let my listeners know where they can find you and your services online? 

Fauzia: I tell people that the reason I married my husband is because I got the Irish last name, which is Burke, and my first name is Persian. So there's only one Fauzia Burke out there, which is the benefit of having a very unusual combination of a name. So you can literally search my name. It's Fauzia Burke. You'll find me. It's fauziaburke.dot com is my website. My company website is FSB associates dot com. We have a platform for building Author websites, which is Pub Site. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.