Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.
Mindy: We're here with Fred Koehler, who, apart from being an author himself and having quite a life full of misadventures and inspiration, also has a development program called Ready Chapter 1, for writers, and he also helps brands across the US tell their own story and runs a design studio, just a lot of different elements at work here with this guest to dive into and talk about different elements of writing and publishing and especially marketing. So let's start by you telling us a little bit about your life and just the various elements of your life that the rest of us probably haven't experienced.
Fred: I’m kind of woodsy, and I think I used to say the word redneck, but I don't know if that's derogatory or not anymore. My dad was an outdoorsman and we spent a lot of time camping and fishing, and I never got into the hunting or anything like that, but riding my bike barefoot and wading in the lakes and rivers, and there were alligators and all kinds of stuff creeping all around us, we didn't know. We were just kids. We were just kids growing up. When that kind of turned into me being an artist, I felt like that was a voice that I could pull from because not a lot of people had those kinds of experiences or not that I've encountered in the publishing industry have had those experiences, so... It's a neat perspective to be able to bring, and I know it's one that you've had as well.
Mindy: I grew up... Woodsy is a great way to put it. I'm still Woodsy, I live in the middle of nowhere. I'm in Ohio, so we don't have anything out here in nature that can kill us, no alligators or anything like that, but when I think about the things that I did as a child growing up there were just so stupid. Near death, most of the time. I thought I was having fun and I was, I was having a great time. I really love that, and I love that naivete of childhood where we're not worried all the time, we're just having fun, it's a beautiful thing.
Fred: That's an experience that is incredible to be able to put that energy and that curiosity and that imagination into books and into stories. But also I feel like it's part of our bigger mission is to create a world where kids still get to have that, or they still get to be kids. I wanna simultaneously live out my childhood throughout my entire life, but I also wanna create safe spaces for kids to have those same opportunities.
Mindy: Yeah, absolutely. Have you read The Last Child in the Woods?
Fred: No. That sounds good though.
Mindy: It's fascinating, it's called The Last Child in the Woods, and it's just about children growing up with absolutely no contact with nature, there's a certain unhappiness that can be tied to it. I know that whenever I'm not doing well, like mentally or whatever, it's like you gotta go outside, man.
Fred: Exactly, I'm in Central Florida, so I'm about 50 minutes, less than an hour from Tampa, a couple of hours to the East Coast. And we love both coasts, but if I can get my toes in the salt water, and I still do this today, I free dive and I Spearfish, and kayaking, and I go to the springs.
Mindy: So I'm from the Midwest, we hike all over the Midwest, and we found a spot in Kentucky that it's like an unofficial jump off the cliff into the water spot.
Fred: Oh my gosh, yes.
Mindy: We were participating in that and there weren't many people around and getting up that nerve to do something like that, of course, and then being like, That was awesome, I'm gonna do it again. And it's like re-capturing that feeling, 'cause you know I'm in my 40s and I'm like, I'm gonna jump off this cliff and I'm gonna see what happens. I was kind of like, Oh, I remember this, I remember this feeling.
Fred: Isn't that what we have to do? Screw up our courage? If you wanna put your work out there into the world, and I bet you have a lot of listeners who are breaking into the publishing industry and it's such a scary thing to be like, Okay, this story that I wrote, this thing that's so personal and so dear to my heart, if I put it out there into the world, what if something goes wrong? What if I don't hit the water? What if I belly-flop? I mean, there's so many analogies you could make.
Mindy: Oh yes. What if something goes wrong is basically how I think a lot of people live, which is fine, and they'll live a long time, and probably be healthier. I am a risk taker. There's no doubt. And it does hurt though. You can get hurt. This is a really good point. I was querying for 10 years, this was before, because before you couldn’t query with emails, we were doing self-addressed stamped envelopes. But it hurt. Every time you grow a callous, but man, rejections are still rejections, and I think that it's scary to take that stuff where you're trying to find an agent. But I actually do think that it is almost scarier that first time you're sharing something you wrote with someone, man, there's a vulnerability there, like you're saying it is like throwing yourself off that cliff or swimming with the crocodiles in Florida.
Fred: It’s alligators in Florida.
Mindy: I’m just very Midwest over here. We don’t have things that can kill us. I don’t know what yours are called.
Fred: I'm more afraid of the alligators that I am the sharks, they're all just trying to live their lives and be who they are, but you have to remember they are also wild animals with big pointy teeth. But they all hurt, When they clamp down.
Mindy: Yes, they do. Tell my listeners a little bit about your development program and your training program, which is called Ready Chapter 1.
Fred: This is literally a thing that happened because of covid, so much happened because of covid. I had a local writers group, when you're a writer, you wanna hang out with other writers, those are your people, that's your tribe. That's where you feel the least insane is when you're around people who think and act and have the same sort of vision and hopes as you do. So we were getting together with this writer's group, and people were coming from all over Central Florida just to meet and hang out and read some pages and talk about where they wanted to go with their writing and their creativity. And then covid happens, and it's like, Well, we can't meet any more. I wasn't ready to accept that as an ending to where I was seeing all of these folks elevate their craft. So I thought to myself, Well, you know what, if we use the same technology that I have to use for all the boring meetings that I go to for work, what if we could figure out a way to sort of bring that learning and that craft development into the virtual world? I basically invited nine of my friends who are extremely successful, either agents or editors or best-selling authors, and I was like, Will you guys each come and teach a class for me, and let's not just teach a class, let's make them consecutive.
So let's take the 10 most important elements of storytelling and teach them in the order you would need to know them to write a really, really good story. And lo and behold, they were like, sure I'll teach that class for you, and so now we've got... We're building and it's still in progress, but we've got a cohort of about 60 students who are going through this process where literally we've taken them from the idea, from the very concept of their story, and we're gonna end with a completed story and a query package that they're gonna be able to take out and submit their work out into the world.
Mindy: Nice. A lot of people need that encouragement right from the beginning, because I know that when I was doing this, everything was kind of hush-hush and magical and behind closed doors, and you had to go to the book store and buy the Writer's Market guide to literary agents for that year. It blows my mind when I look around and I look at sites like yours, I'm just like, Oh my gosh, I feel like so much has been demystified, those barriers are coming down, the barriers to entry, but also just the barriers to knowledge, because I feel like the knowledge was very guarded for a long time.
Fred: Yeah, and I absolutely agree with that. And I spent 10 years wandering the deserts of publishing trying to figure stuff out, and I don't want other people to have that experience, and I just wanted the answers, I just wanted the information and I was willing to put in the work. Those are the types of folks who I feel are gonna be successful, so if you're listening to this and you are the type of person who's willing to put in the work, and you're hungry to elevate your craft and you're hungry to elevate your network... My guess is you are the type of person who's gonna be successful sooner in publishing than the folks who are looking for somebody to just hand them the answers.
Mindy: Absolutely. I had a conversation with my mother this past weekend because I was keynoting a festival, and they had asked me to speak about Why I Write the things that I write, 'cause I write dark stuff, I write for teens, but I write very dark, gray moral areas and things like that, it's what I like to explore. The people who are organizing it said, Hey, why don't you make your keynote about why do you write these things? Why do you like those things? I don't know, it's just who I am. And went over to my mom's and I just open up the old family scrapbooks to find pictures of families together on family outings and everybody's having fun, and then there's me, and I am clearly miserable and very unhappy. I'm in my head right now, I'm not having fun at the water park, everyone around us could drown... That's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about falling off this high slide and dying, I'm in a worst case scenario I'm four, And I'm like, We all die here. So yeah, I was a fun kid. Once I was in that mode, I was just like, I wasn't leaving it, it's like you're not going to convince me that I'm having fun.
I'm not having fun. I'm legitimately scared. I think I'm gonna die. The rest of you are naive to think that this is fun, I was a pretty unbearable child. And my mom would get so upset and she would be like, Mindy, you're so stubborn once you're thinking anything or you're convinced of something, you don't let it go. It doesn't matter. All evidence to the contrary. You're not gonna let it go. You're stubborn, and my grandmother told her, she's not stubborn, she's determined, and that is going to be a wonderful quality for her to have. And my mother was telling me this story in the car this weekend, and I was like, You know, if I wasn't determined, there's no way I would make it in publishing. There's no way. The only reason I'm good at what I'm good at is because I don't quit.
Fred: Exactly, exactly. And it's so interesting that you brought that up. My day job is in animations, I work for an animation studio as a writer. They made me do a personality profile before they would hire me. I was the only person in the entire hundred person organization who was 100% Green, and basically what it meant was that my super power was determination, but there was also a flip side of that, and when you flip the thing over the Achilles heel is stubbornness. And so I think there are two sides of the same coin, and it's literally like, how you are when you're at your best and how you respond when you're at your worst. So that's something for both of us to keep in mind is that when we're highly stressed out we will be stubborn.
Mindy: Oh yes, absolutely. And you will not move me, even if I know I'm wrong, I will argue to explain how I know that I'm wrong, but I'm still not budging.
Fred: Okay, so give me an example of how that has served you in publishing.
Mindy: Just that length of time, those 10 years of querying, you are being rejected for 10 years. You're having someone say, No, you're not good enough. No, this doesn't work. No, no, no, no, we don't want you. Right? For 10 years. And instead of absorbing that as, you really aren't good enough, you really can't make this... You can't do this. So this is where I was determined, but not stubborn. I think if you're stubborn, you're thinking - screw you... You're missing out. No, I was determined to absorb that feeling and get better because I needed to. I was rejected for 10 years for good reason - I was not good enough. I had to write four more books before I was good enough, but I was determined to get better and to do it, and to break in, there was an edge to it of, Yes, I will make this, I will get in here. This is the only thing I've wanted to do with my entire life, this was my life’s goal from a very young age. This is what I wanted. Like you, I had No connections. I’m a Farmer's Daughter from Ohio. I'm doing this on my own. Not only do I have to climb this ladder on my own, I have to make the ladder.
All of it is on me. I did it because I wasn't going to quit. And I do dislike in many ways, when people say, Never quit, don't quit. I do think it is okay to quit for a small period of time because you can't hit your head against a brick wall ‘til the point where you have a concussion and keep going. You have to stop, let the concussion heal and then come back to the brick wall and start hitting your head against it again.
Fred: I like that analogy, and then I probably have some scars on my forehead from that process, I think we all do. You're exactly right. Those are the folks who are gonna find success, I love to meet people like that through the program, those are the people that I've been able to give scholarships to. I didn't wanna make cost a barrier to anybody to participate, so it's like... Just write me a note and tell me how excited you are about your career and how passionate you are and what you think, and how you think you can change the world by becoming a better storyteller. And literally, I gave so many people a free ride to this program because I could see myself reflected in them. I wanna root for every single person who feels that way, it feels like you just described.
I wanna talk about writing. It's so refreshing just to get to talk to another writer and hear their stories and hear their struggles. Have you seen the effects, fallout from the pandemic in the industry? 'cause I feel like I have everywhere.
Mindy: So the most obvious right now, which is a real thorn in my side, is the paper shortage. It's bad.
Fred: Printing fewer books?
Mindy: Printing fewer books and literally running out of them. So I had a book come out in March and my new releases are fine, so... That's great, but I don't give up on my back list. I have, I think, 12 books out now, and when I travel, I promote all of them. I will speak primarily about my newest books, and then I'm like, and these are my other books, because I wrote them, I don't care if they came out 10 years ago, they still matter to me and I'm still promoting them. So I would be promoting books and people literally can't get them. I was at a school visit, and in some ways it was on the school... 'cause two weeks before my visit, they said, Hey, we wanna buy a copy of your book for every single seventh grader... That's amazing. Of course, I will sign them. And then they got back to me and they were like, Hey, we can't get them. They don't exist, and I got a hold of my publisher, And they don't have 350 Copies of that, and we can't get them printed, we can't make that happen.
Fred: All the frustrating things about the industry, which again goes back to that whole thing about determination, stubbornness. I found during the pandemic that everything I sent out for querying just kind of felt like it disappeared into the ether, what used to be a week turned into months and then a lot of times… crickets. I was just like, Oh well, maybe my work isn't good enough anymore, maybe they don't wanna publish my books anymore. Come to find out that's not necessarily true, it's just like it feels like the industry has done a reset and it's on us to figure out what these shifts are and how we need to adjust and pivot just to be able to be successful.
Mindy: Yeah, I agree with that. I have found that because I write for teenagers, I have to be in front of them. They aren't showing up to Zooms, they don't care. And it is an interesting facet of being a young adult author, people outside of teens think of them as always being on their phones, they're always on their phones, they're always on the computer, they're always looking at a screen. And that's true for certain areas, if they're gonna do homework, they want a computer, they want a phone, if they're gonna obviously social media and texting their friends, all that stuff, it's phone, phone, phone. But what's really interesting is when it's not - they're out. They don't read ebooks. Teenagers do not read ebooks, they want physical books. And it's true about interacting with authors. When I do anything online, it's adults that show up. I don't get kids. When I have people in my social media feeds, 95% of the time, it's adults. The kids want a person in front of them. And I think that's super refreshing, but that is something I always believed, and then I learned it very, very strongly in the pandemic. Because I would do virtual events anything, anybody wanted - Yes, of course, I'll do it. And three people show up. I'm starting to go back out on tour and things like that, and of course it's a school, so it's a captive audience, but I'll have 300 kids in an auditorium and at least half of them come up to buy books or to talk or to get a selfie. So yeah, for me, it was a really big re-understanding of something that I already knew that the teen audience wants to interact with you in a legitimate way, they don't want that screen in between you and them.
Fred: Yeah, it makes such good sense. So my books are middle grade and picture books, I experience those kids even less through any sort of digital way, if it's not an in-person event. They're not gonna sit on mom and dad's lap to show a Zoom. I haven't done a school visit since the pandemic, all my author friends like they're starting to get back out into the world. I know it's gonna get better, I know we're gonna come out of this, but I feel like as writers who have to promote. Sometimes you have on your introvert hat, you get to be the introverted person sitting in the corner of the coffee shop, writing the story. And sometimes you have where you’re a promoter and where you're out in the world talking about your books, that shift is gonna shake up the industry a little bit as we come out of the pandemic.
Mindy: The introvert extrovert hat is a real thing, and I can very, very powerfully be both, and I enjoy that dichotomy about myself. When I do school visits, I'm always trying to be partially just entertaining, you know what that's like. It's like you have to keep their attention. Selling me and selling the books are two different things, right? But if I can sell myself to you, then you'll buy the books.
Fred: What advice can we give to your listeners that help point them along their journey, and you've done enough of these that you've probably got stuff that you say over and over again. So what do you say over and over again? What do you wanna underscore for your listeners
Mindy: If you wanna be a writer, you have to be a reader. You must read. Having classes and things like yours available are absolutely amazing. I didn't have access to any of that. I learned how to write entirely by reading, I grew up in a not artsy place, I never had a single instructional moment of writing my entire life, I learned to write by reading, and that's what I tell people like If you can't write... For whatever reason, if it's not there today, if you're hurting, whatever is going on, if you can't write, be reading.
Fred: I love that advice. That's so good. Well, I think what I'll add to that is get out there into the world and having the experiences. For both of us, as outdoorsy people, it's second nature to be away from the civilized world. It's also the way that I get story ideas is by going out and having really dumb adventures. Think of the things that you want to know how to do, that have always sounded exciting and interesting to you, and then just give yourself permission to go try it. Whatever it is, whether it's sky diving or hiking or Botany... I don't know, but whatever it is, just by going through that experience you'll have the memories and then sort of the physical recall to put into the details of your story, and it's gonna make it that much stronger.
Mindy: My last three books exist because I go outside and I had a single moment, an event, a thing that happened, there was a seed that grew into a novel. And if I was the person that sat inside and tried to come up with ideas, was an idea generator, those books wouldn't exist
Fred: Since we were talking about Ready Chapter 1, I will give you a coupon code or your listeners, anything that's gonna help them get themselves going and get them motivated, it would be a pleasure to just introduce them that way into the program.
Mindy: That's awesome, well, thank you so much. Last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online, but also your books and where they can find your program, Ready Chapter 1?
Fred: Let's start with a book. So I used to be able to say, anywhere books are sold, and it seems like that's harder to get onto the bookstore shelves these days in the physical store. So a lot of them are through online retailers, and I always suggest that you support your local indie book store. My best known books are probably Garbage Island, which is a middle grade novel about animals stuck on the Great Pacific garbage patch. And then One Day, The End which is a picture book about the adventures a little girl has just in her own backyard, and then the way she tells that story of her experiences. My personal website is I like Fred dot com and that's where I have all of the books listed there, and ways to contact me and get in touch, and the program is Ready Chapter 1 dot com, and that's the numeral one. So Ready Chapter 1 dotcom.
Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.