Mindy: Today's guest is Lisa Gardner, a number one New York times bestselling thriller novelist and self-described research junkie. She has transformed her interest in police procedure and criminal minds into a streak of internationally acclaimed novels, published across 30 countries. She's also had four books, become TV, movies, and has made personal appearances on true TV and CNN. Lisa invites her readers to enter the annual, "Kill a friend, maim a buddy sweepstakes at lisagardner.com. Every year one lucky stiff is selected to meet a grand end in Lisa's latest novel, past winners have nominated spouses, best friends, and even themselves. Lisa joined me today to talk about her newest release. When You See Me, which combines three of her most loved characters and how heavily research plays into her process.
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Mindy: You are a New York times number one bestselling author. You've had a wonderful career. Your newest., When You See Me, will be out soon. So tell us about the new book. If it's a new space for you or if you're working some in the world you've already created.
Lisa: When You See Me, opens up with the discovery of skeleton remains off a major hiking trail in this secluded mountain town. A task force is sent to investigate and see what other clues can be learned. And find themselves stumbling upon something far, far worse than they ever imagined. Let's say stuff that sent me to the Body Farm to learn about mass graves. It quickly becomes clear, nothing in this charming little town is as it seems. And now the entire task force finds their lives in danger.
Mindy: So you mentioned the Body Farm, which I'm familiar with just as a person that has to do some slightly off center research themselves. So for listeners that don't know, the Body Farm is quite a few acres. I can't remember how many, but it's a very large area where more or less, for lack of a better way of phrasing it, they simply lay bodies out in different positions and in different weather conditions. And then they study the decomposition just so that they, in instances of a real crime such as Lisa's new book When You See Me is about, they can compare and contrast these different decomposition rates and learn more about time of death and situational effects of how these bodies decompose. So did you actually physically go then to the Body Farm?
Lisa: Yes. So the original body farm, kind of the quote unquote body farm is run by the University of Tennessee and it is their department of anthropology, forensic anthropology. And as you mentioned, um, the job starting back in the 1960s was to figure out time of death for skeletal remains. Um, up until that point we were using some thousand year old Chinese text that could only tell you time. They actually say times since the death of like plus or minus a couple of years, which if you can imagine the detective, it's like, do you have an alibi from 1968 to 1970? Very difficult to move forward in these cases. So as you described, it's called Deaths Acre. And yes, they have people who have donated their body to science or specifically to the body farm, the remains arrive and they arrange them in various, um, conditions to help start establishing what are the variables that affected decomp. When you watch CSI and they talk about blue flies and you know, we think its 12 hours since death based on the life cycle of the larvae. That is information and learned from the body farm.
Lisa: So I did go in person. Um, I think one of the coolest parts of being a suspense novelist is an excuse to do this kind of research to talk to people who have really amazing jobs. It's the most intimidating research I've ever done. I really am an everyday working mom. I never actually had seen a dead body outside a funeral home. It was daunting to walk amid, you know, so many human remains. And yes, there is the smell and insect activity and all of that stuff going on. And I really, what I found is everyone there conducted themselves with a great deal of reverence and appreciation for the people who donated their body so they could learn more and that helped offset and, um, keep me in the moment. So I didn't actually embarrass myself by, you know, vomiting at the body farm.
Mindy: I'm, I mean, I, I myself have never seen a, uh, a dead body in any type of decomposition. I really can't even imagine. That sounds, my immediate reaction is that I'm fascinated and jealous. But then the backup reaction is basically ugh.
Lisa: Yeah, it was very daunting. But I'm so grateful I did it because we certainly, I had a preconceived notion when I went to write When You See Me, I'm working to discover this, this grave, um, the bones are completely weathered, completely skeletal and I'm thinking that should, you know, will be immediately a hindrance to the taskforce. Well you go to places like the body farm, talk to real forensic anthropologists and I mean she basically could solve my cold case in like two pages. It's like, Oh well, okay. So it turns out, I mean it was amazing to me cause this is real life that, you know, from a single bone, the amount of information we could glean. You worry that people won't believe it in the novel. So working real people in the field, it's like, okay, um, well we need to remove this and we need to take away this and okay, if we juggle this variable... now it's much more challenging from a forensic perspective because I really do try very hard to make the police procedure, the forensics procedures in my suspense novels would be, it's real world as possible. You know, with the exception that in books we always get DNA back in like three hours.
Mindy: Yeah.
Lisa: Dot dot dot nine months later when the lab report came back.
Mindy: Right. It is true when you're working, especially with the procedural, but also in one of my books, there is a like a courtroom scene, it's sticking too close to reality. You need to make the reader believe it's possible. But at the same time it's very difficult to write them dramatically or have the big moments or the big reveal in any type of way that could actually happen in real life. I know that in my courtroom scenes, friends, lawyer friends, you know, I would ask them for feedback and they would send it back and they would say, it's great. It's wonderfully written. This would never happen in real life. You know, the prosecutor would have shut this down. But they're like, don't change it because if I were to help you make this realistic, it would be so boring,
Lisa: And I find that kind of stuff fascinating that give and take. So, for example, you know, when I was at the body farm and I'm learning how they would exhume skeleton remains. I mean in the real world, you're right, you know, like nine months, a year later they have it all exhumed and it's almost like an archeological book. But again, you know, we keep plausible what they find and what they could learn. But like you said, you kind of speed up the, the time it takes because real world policing is slow, tedious business. The legal system doesn't actually, you know, the wheels of justice have their own pace. And it's painfully slow for most of us.
Mindy: Absolutely. Especially when it comes just for waiting for results. And I yes, even from a medical perspective, if you're someone who's waiting for a blood test to come back or something like that, they're like, yes, you know, we'll let you know in two weeks. And it's like, Oh, okay. I mean I hope there's nothing really wrong with me.
Lisa: I think one of the joys of a good thriller novel, you know, is you're going to get that cliffhanger feeling, um, you know, page turning and you also get generally more answers than you get in the real world too. But I personally as a reader appreciate that.
Mindy: Oh, absolutely. And I appreciate it too. Just as a human moving through the world. I, a lot of the reason that I read and write in the genre that I do is because I need to see justice. I need to see it a little more quickly than I'm getting it in reality.
Lisa: Yes. One of the characters I've really loved that we see in When You See Me is Flora Dane. And she's a victim turned vigilante. I first wrote about her a few books ago. Meant to be, you know, its own standalone novel and she was once kidnapped and was held prisoner for 472 days. But she so grew on me. Um, she is a survivor. She's trying to find her way to the other side. She's broken, but she knows she's broken and full of jagged edges. I think that's so relatable and for her When You See Me was such a big book, because I wanted to try to start giving her answers to her questions. You know, who was this man who kidnapped her and did terrible things to her life and to her family? But I didn't know any of the answers. The way I write is, I kind of come up with this scenario, but I mean I have to show up each day to write, to find out what really is going on in the mountains. What are the terrible secrets in this town?
Mindy: It's so interesting that that is your process as someone that is an old hand at writing in the genre. I have found myself that people are often surprised when it comes to a thriller or a mystery that the author doesn't necessarily have a plan from the beginning. I know that I don't. I'm much like you. I start with something that I'm invested in or interested in and then I'm writing it myself to find out what happened. So if you could talk a little bit about your process, I think that'd be fascinating for my listeners that are also writers
Lisa: I'd like to come up with kind of an over the top crime. Something maybe pulled from the headlines like a spree shooting or uh, When You See Me has to do with a lot of the cold case investigations we're seeing now because of all the new advances. Then I go when I talk to experts and often that's cold calling. I can't say that I've ever reached a point in my career where you can call up, you know, like places like the body farm, like, Oh sure. Lisa Gardner, we read you all the time! I'm not sure these people read thrillers all the time.
Lisa: So you're always just starting from the beginning. I'm a novelist. I'd like to research. You learn the parameters. Um, sometimes there's a lot of hoops to jump through. Sometimes the body farm, it was coming up with a research project because they are an educational institution. Uh, and then learning just in the real world. What can you figure out from a crime scene? What kind of clues would you look for? What's the steps you would take and learning generally? Some fun stuff like, um, I learned about mass graves, which was not something I knew and was completely different than I had ever pictured. You know, cadaver dogs and just amazing scent skill they have at finding things you would just never imagine being found in the woods. And then all of that becomes, I don't know, it's like thrown into the giant hopper of my brain. Then comes the hard part. You sit down and I don't know how it is for you, but you kind of pray it all works itself out.
Mindy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You hope it coalesces into something significant. The best comparison I've ever heard, and I cannot remember who said this, but someone told me that they look at it as like a lint ball and they have just have a lint ball in their brain and little pieces of lint come in and they'll stick and some things stick onto those that are related to each other, continue to grow into a larger lint ball until you, you're ready to hit that point. Like you said, where you sit down and you try to transfer that lint ball into something that reveals, you know, structure and plot.
Lisa: I like that analogy very much. I often feel my brain could be, is nothing more than a giant bowl of lint.
Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know, I don't know about you, but sometimes I find myself finding just one of those little pieces of lint, a little factoid or something that I find interesting and then I'll be writing and I'll be like, Oh, I'm going to slip that in there. And then I think, wait, did I already do that? Have I used this before in a book? And I have to actually go back and check my other work. So I make sure I'm not hitting something because I know what I'm interested in. I know what I find fascinating, but I don't want to hit my readers over the head with something that I already showed them.
Lisa: And I have to say I've done two things with the body farm. So you're right, I had one book that, well you don't want to be too repetitious, but also some of the procedures have changed and gotten, you know, new and improved all the time, so it was also updating my knowledge. But I dunno, I, I will admit I'm the biggest, I don't know, like forensic junkie, people who do that kind of work and the things in real life you can do, you can learn. It's just amazing.
Mindy: it is. It truly is. So you mentioned Flora Dane When You See Me is the 11th book in the detective DD Warren series. You'e combining three of your most beloved characters, obviously DD Warren but Flora Dane and also Kimberly Quincy. So you're bringing in three of your characters from your previous titles, putting them together in this new situation. So is that something that you said to yourself, Hey, I know, wouldn't it be fun to stick these three people together and you started from that or did you begin with the concept and then think, Oh, this is a great situation for Flora to be a part of because this will expand her story more? Was it intentional from the beginning to combine the three or did it come about more organically?
Lisa: Actually, in this case it was intentional, which is always interesting for me because I joke, I'm the world's biggest non-series, series author. Each book is a standalone plot and you don't need to have ever read any of the other books to understand them just fine. But the truth is I'm dealing with all these criminal scenarios, these homicide cases where, Oh it would be logical for the FBI to investigate this and Hey, and this one book had this FBI agent. Readers ask me about her all the time. So why not use her? Or this would be a city urban policing case and I have this Boston cop that readers really like, why not use her? And in this case it was like, you know, now you have people on social media, you know, I'm #TeamKimberly or #TeamDD or #TeamFlora. Why make them pick? Basically big crimes and task forces are used a lot these days. What about the right scenario, weave them all into the book and really it was so much fun. You have like three, you know, really strong kick ass female investigators, but they have very different styles and you know how to mix them. What are the pros and cons of three alpha women trying to do something together? That was a really fun dynamic for me to write.
Mindy: Continuing in this vein of the female detective and having a series that is about some violent crimes and it's something that has come up before in the thriller and mystery genre about how violence against women is portrayed and having women investigating those. And then of course you yourself being a female writing it. I personally have never come across yet, I should say - yes, it's early days - but, any type of scenario where I was approached by someone who questioned my ability or my, I guess temperament in handling these more difficult scenes.
Lisa: I think there's been a lot of changes in the suspense genre. When I first started out, you know, back in the 80s that was, you know, Thomas Harris, Silence of the Lambs. It felt like every book was serial killers. All the time. And yeah, no, my first few suspense novels were sent back to me to explicitly make more graphic and violent. That's what readers wanted. I'm not sure I always agreed with that. You know, now we're in the day and age of the domestic, you know, danger is closer than you think. And it's interesting to me because I think domestic thrillers have long been in the realm, particularly of top female writers. I mean, if you think of Mary Higgins Clark, um, Agatha Christie, I mean they are the psychology of crime, uh, what it takes to solve crimes and what's it like to be a survivor, which I think is a big theme. And When You See Me particularly with both Flora Dane and this other character girl, I think that's something we do extraordinarily well. And what I like to focus on now, this point of the suspension genre versus, you know, previously the really graphic over the top serial killer du jour books.
Mindy: We do experience the world in a different way from men. When we walk outside, we're aware that we could be prey. Men don't necessarily have to live that way. So I've had situations where I had to stop and get gas and I had to stop and get gas somewhere, that was quite frankly a little bit sketchy and I was getting gas and I was filling up my car. I told the person I was dating at the time, I said, I just puffed myself up big like a bird on the nature channel.
Lisa: Yes. And that's a lot of the research I've done for Flora Dane. You're talking about a woman who was kidnapped and held hostage. The worst has happened to her. You're right. She goes through every minute now acutely aware of her vulnerability, and that crime is all around her. And it was really fun to research for her. Um, like everyday self-defense, you know, ways to be aware of your surroundings. Um, you know, Flora Dane's a type of woman, she gets trapped in a garage or a supply closet. She's going to figure out how to kill you with a straw or flower food. That was some really fun research to do, but very powerful to know as a woman traveling. These are steps you should take things to be aware of. One of the biggest defenses they think works for women is, are dogs. Dogs add an element an intruder can't control and you know, think twice. So I have three dogs and I tell you each one is bigger and fiercer than the last. I have a 16 year old Pomeranian right now. So it's a little bit embarrassing.
Mindy: Oh, well I uh, I have to agree with that. I also have a dog. He's a German, well, he's part German shepherd. He's a mutt. Um, so he looks like he's going to protect me right to the bitter end. But honestly he, if you step on his foot, he's, he'll cry, like literally cries like a baby. So we just, we go for looks over here.
Mindy: You were talking about just little things that women need to be aware of or some of us have already, you know, learned. I worked in a high school for a long time. I was a librarian for 14 years and I do substitute still in the district because I missed the kids. One point I ended up having a classroom that was just girls and I don't know how we got there, but I ended up just telling them things that are so simple that you can do that just drop your danger level. Don't jog with earbuds in. When you get in your car, lock it behind you. Immediately start the car. Don't fiddle with your music or check your messages or anything like that. Get in the car, lock it behind you, rolling your keys in your hands, having your phone ready to dial, like any of these things. Really easy steps anybody can do. You don't have to carry a weapon. You don't have to have a rape whistle, you don't have to have pepper spray. You can use some real small things. I can teach you right now
Lisa: And I think it's one of the reasons we love to read suspense. People like you and I are prone to writing suspense is, I think the other form of self-defense kind of what they call mental preparedness. We are looking for those little details. Yes, you can, you know, walk around with your car keys stuck between your fingers and that makes for an instant self-defense weapon or you know Flora Dane, who is small talks about, she doesn't want to punch anyone but you know the damage you can do with the heel of your hand, or elbow. I think all of that stuff makes the reading experience that much more exciting and that makes that research fun to do. I think there's also comfort in how much police can learn. I mean I think one of the big appeals when you listen to a podcast or watch true crime cases on TV or something like forensic, how good they've gotten at some of this stuff
Lisa: It's nice to have Flora Dane because you can, we can all learn about self defense but it's nice to have, you know, an FBI agent, Kimberly and detective Deedee Warren because they're also showing the newest investigative techniques, which means I'm getting to learn those two and the ways, you know, the police are just getting better and better all the time.
Mindy: Yup. Absolutely. Right. Yes, for sure.
Lisa: Again, really, really amazed at the body farm. Just how much they could learn from so little like it was just astounding to me and I'm like, it's getting really hard to get away with murder now.
Mindy: If I want to put somebody in danger, the first thing I have to do now is disable their phone.
Lisa: Yeah, true. I'm actually doing a teen that went missing now in Boston. That's the book I'm working on for next year and Oh my God. By the time I was done with the police, the amount of, especially in an urban environment like Boston, the amount of information they would have at their fingertips within like 45 minutes. I mean, to get someone to truly truly vanish, whether by choice or against their will is difficult. Extremely difficult. I'm kind of having fun trying to create a complicated enough knot that's also plausible. I love that challenge.
Mindy: As a human being, I'm comforted as a writer. I'm like, Oh man, how am I going to do this?
Lisa: If you're in a city at all big brother is always watching. Always I'm not completely sure what I think about that.
Mindy: I agree.
Lisa: It sounds like Mindy, both you and I will always have plenty of inspiration for our novels, right?
Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Why don't you tell us where people can find, When You See Me online, it comes out January 28th and where they can find you online as well.
Lisa: When You See Me will be available any place books are sold, online retailers and bricks and mortar as we like to say, and you can follow me on my website and lisagardener.com. You can nominate the person at your choice to die in my next novel. I am on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook as Lisa Gardner BKS.