Mindy: Today's guest is Rebecca Syme, creator of the Better, Faster Academy, producer of the Quit Cast for writers as well as being an author herself. Rebecca joined me today to talk about how knowing your personality strengths can help you be a more productive writer.
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Mindy: You are the creator of the Better, Faster Academy an education and coaching approach designed to help writers form their own personalized strategies and processes to write better, faster instead of adopting what works for someone else. So we all know that there's no right way to write a book, but there is the challenge of finding your way. So can you tell us a little bit about how your program helps each writer discover what that is?
Becca: We use a combination of personality metrics, metrics of graphing yourself on different continuums and how you fall, not as a way of predicting what your personality is or anything like that. I'm not a fan of labeling people as only one thing. But when it comes to certain behaviors, like for instance, um, should you outline to get faster or actually a better way of saying that is if I outlined will it help me to get faster because it won't actually help everyone to write faster if they outline. And then how do you tell whether or not you are one of those people? And so my goal is to take recognized patterns of success with writers and to apply that to an individual person and to say, well, if it's not working for you, and then we ask a bunch of questions, all the why's, right? And so what we're trying to do is align the individual writer with what is potentially successful for them. How do they know if it'll be successful? And so it's a very objective to subjective process, I guess, if that makes sense. And it's almost completely unique to everybody.
Mindy: Interesting. What's the first step that you do with someone if they come to you
Becca: I always encourage people to come through the class first, uh, to come into Write Better Faster. Cause there's some big picture stuff that we have to talk about first, right? Cause there's good news and bad news. Not everything is possible for everyone and we kind of have to have that conversation first. What are your goals? What are your pain points? And that's kind of where we start from. What are you struggling with and what are you hoping to get that you're not getting? And then that's kinda how we focus the time in the class. Each class has coaching as a part of it. So, um, we always want to start with who the writer is, what do they want and what are they not getting that they want?
Mindy: And one of the things that I saw on your website is that you're being very clear that this is not a magic bullet. Uh, I think we all know there's no magic bullet for anything in life, but writing in particular is slippery.
Becca: A lot of us want to get faster, for instance. And so there are a lot of techniques out there that are touted as being the magic bullet for how to get faster. Outlining ahead before you write is one of them. And dictation is another one. And yet there are scores of really successful people who are writing at a speed that they are happy with that don't use those because they don't work for them. And so then my goal is to try and figure out why isn't it working and how can we find something that'll address your specific issues.
Mindy: And when you say faster is that metric different for every writer, like some writers are writing, like I produce a book a year. I've had years where I've written two and that's pretty fast for most traditionally published writers. So when you say faster, is that just coming from the place where the author says, I'd like to write, you know, faster than I already do? Not necessarily as fast as Mindy.
Becca: Yes. Yes, exactly. And especially when their metric of faster is not coming from themselves. Like so a lot of people come into the class with a specific number of books that they want to write because they think that it should be possible to do that because everybody does it. Quote unquote, right? Like I'm using air quotes there. Like, everyone should be capable of writing 12 books a year, but should they realistically? That's not possible for most people. And it's not that I'm telling people you can't follow your dreams. It's if you're not capable of doing something, why are you shooting for it? Because all you're going to do is be frustrated by the experience. And what I found is that if people can set the expectations for themselves based on what they're capable of, and then we can get them faster than what they're currently doing. But they don't always know what that is because they're often taking their cues from the people around them instead of from themselves.
Mindy: And that's, that's exactly where I think people get tripped up because people ask me all the time when I'm doing a writing class, if I'm teaching or when I'm talking to kids, how much do you write a day? And I tell them, I don't necessarily break it down by time. I write... When I'm drafting, I'm not necessarily always drafting. When I'm drafting, I'm writing a thousand words a day. That's always my goal. And I can usually crack out a thousand words in about an hour and a half, two hours and pretty good words because I smooth out as I go. And then sometimes they're super intimidated by that or it goes the other way. They're not impressed at all. But either way it's like, well this is what, and I tell them, this is what works for me. I write at this rate and I generally can write a novel in about three months, working at that, at that rate. And that's a first draft. I always tell them, you know,. But as a first draft, I tend to draft pretty cleanly now that I've been doing this long enough. But that's me. I just had Tracy Chevalier on the podcast last month and she puts out a book like every three, four years. And that's what works for her cause she's writing very in depth, historical fiction. There's so much research involved and I think a lot of aspiring writers see authors like James Patterson for example, that just have books falling off the shelves every month and they think that is their picture of success. That's what I need to be able to do.
Becca: That's a good point too is that there are also what you value about your books is different from other people sort of metric, right? So if you value a very deeply researched well thought out deep book, it is not possible to get that product in the amount of time that it takes to quote unquote dash off books. Right? Like it's just not possible and nobody wants to hear that or I would actually - that's not true. I do find that people are fairly happy to hear that when what they want is more of the Tracy Chevalier type of book. They're happy to hear, I don't have to do it the way everybody else does it, but they don't often hear that. What they hear is I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And you know, how do I get there?
Mindy: I think it's a good point to bring up because to bring another name into it, Donna Tartt brings out a book like every seven to 10 years. Well I, you know, you forgot she existed, but then it's just like, Oh wow. You know, it, it's an amazing book and you know, it is very much your personal metric when it comes to the better part of it. When you say write better, faster, it's not just about writing faster, it is also about improving and doing both hand in hand. So what's your approach to that with an individual? How are they learning those skills simultaneously?
Becca: We use a psychometric, a success metric. It's called the Gallup StrengthsFinder. I think they changed the name. It's Clifton strengths. Um, if you've heard of it, heard of it recently. Um, it's been around for a few decades now and it is specifically designed to help people understand patterns of success, like psychological success patterns. And so we use that. And for me, better, faster is hyphenated because if you are getting better at something, you should also be getting more efficient at it. So it's not just better and faster. It's literally as you improve, you know, like you talked about with your writing, you get better faster just because you do it more and more. And when you have a talent in that area, you learn how not to make those mistakes anymore. And so we're using this, um, how are you particularly wired for success and then how can we use that knowledge to make your books more appealing to readers or, or to make your marketing approach better or to make you craft narrative better? Like it depends on, again, it's very individualized. So it depends on what the writer is after. But we're always looking at how you stand out, how can you potentially be stronger.
Mindy: And it is true. As with any skill, you get better at it, you'll get faster at it. I always think of dribbling, just like in basketball, dribbling is a skill and if you get better, you get faster. And if you do it every day, it's what I always tell people, no matter what stage they are at with writing, there is the advice to write every day, which I don't personally like because of the fact that I think people hear that and they think, well I can't write every day. I have kids, I have a full time job. I don't want to write every day and therefore I am not a writer. I've never enjoyed that advice for that reason. So I tell people, no, you don't have to write every day, but just like anything else, if you do, you'll get better at it. You know, the more you practice something, anything, the better that you get at it. And faster too.
Mindy: You are also the author of three different books in the Quit Books for writers series titled, Dear Writer, You Need to Quit. Dear Writer, Are You in Burnout? And Dear Writer, You're Doing it Wrong. So tell us a little bit about these books because I love the titles. I love the drive. I love what you're doing with these because they're not, of course, you're not saying you need to quit writing. You're talking about the things that you need to quit doing in your writing world. So if you could talk a little bit about what the different focuses of each of these books are and what writers can expect to learn from them.
Becca: Yeah, the burnout book was a very specific targeted message because I had done a podcast series on burnout that had sort of gone viral. I realized when I was doing it it, it's such a huge topic for people in general right now. Just burnout is a big topic in the larger society, but specifically with writers, you know, the faster the industry moves, the more writers feel like they have to keep up with it. And so I kind of wrote that book specifically for that topic. Like it's only about burnout, but the other two, the Dear Writer, You Need to Quit, and Dear Writer, You're Doing it Wrong, are about subconscious processes that happen in our brains that control the decisions that we make. And how do you master those processes? Like how do you become more aware of them? How do they affect your decision making?
Becca: And that's really the focus of the second book. Dear Writer, You're Doing it Wrong. And the first book is, look, there's all this stuff that we're doing that comes from the expectations of other people and we need to quit doing it. So things like quit fixing your weaknesses. I'm a strengths person. I think the research is there and success metrics that if you focus on your strengths, you're gonna be more successful than if you try to fix all your weaknesses. And so there's a chapter on that. There's a chapter on quit expecting it to be easy. What do you need to quit doing in order to have a better chance at being successful?
Mindy: As I move out into the world doing teaching and working with writers of all ages, aspiring writers, I have this experience where people want to talk to me about the query process and traditional publishing, if that is their goal and they want to talk to me about getting an agent and about writing query letters. And they're like, I'll have a conversation with someone, and they're like, this is really hard. And they're super frustrated. And I'm like, yeah, there's a reason why not many people actually make it that far and it's because it's hard. And they'll be like, I know I sent out 20 queries and I got 15 rejections and I'm like, shut your face. I mean, I was querying for 10 years. This is what I tell people I was querying for 10 years. I have over 300 rejections for one book alone. I had literally queried every agent that would even consider looking at it genre wise, and they all said no. I was just like, yeah, like listen, 10 rejections hurt. I'm not saying that 10 rejections don't hurt, but I'm telling you, this is where you start to form scar tissue because if you're going to sensitive about rejections, the 1000th one is going to kill you.
Becca: Just the fact that most people don't know how normal it is to get rejections, but they don't. They don't understand that, right? They think the process is easy. And so they think, Oh, if I'm getting rejected, there's something wrong with me, or there's something wrong with my book. And we all know the stories on both sides of that, right? The people who are not at all concerned that their book is bad and they just think their book is the best thing ever. And then you have, on the flip side, the people who assume one rejection means that you've written the worst book of all time. Right? And so some of this is just, Hey look, this is what professional working writers know about the industry. Nothing that's worth getting is easy.
Mindy: You have to learn how to live with rejection and accept disappointment as well, because it never stops. I mean, I've got eight books out, been doing this a long time, and I still get, I mean rejections just every day, right? So I mean, a bad review is a rejection. I don't read them, but they're there. And I will send, I send, not necessarily proposals, but I'll pitch ideas that get shot down all the time. Just because I have quote unquote made it. I'm still getting rejected.
Becca: That's the reality of the industry and there's a reason people say things like, Oh, you need thick skin. It is very, very difficult to be in this industry longterm and be successful. If you don't expect that there's going to be a fair amount of adversity, it's just hard to survive. Right? Getting that set early, it's like, okay, let's just all get on the same page here. This is going to be hard.
Mindy: This is going to be hard. I want to go back to what you were saying too, about people looking at it as something that they, you know, accomplishment, a series of accomplishments, a process, because most jobs, most industries, there is a process. You get the training or you go to college or you do whatever it is that's required for you to get the skills that are necessary and then you apply for a job and hopefully you get the job. Maybe you don't, you apply for a different job, but there's, there's an established process and there's a ladder for you to climb and you'll know what the ladder is. There's a series of things that you follow that lead to success and it's, it's outlined for you. It's right there. And publishing, that's not true. It's just simply not true. You, there is a process. You write a query, you get an agent, the agent submits the book, you know, all of those things. But the first step of you write a query could be three or five years of you revising that query and trying to make it better. And the process is there, but it's something that relies so much on chance and whim. Whereas, you know, if you want to be a doctor, you go and you get all the training that you need to be a doctor and you know, you go get a job as a doctor.
Becca: Yeah, yeah. There's no industry standard. There's no objective standard of good. Everything in this industry is subjective and like it's so important to just be able to get your head around that, that the factors of success that we're used to in other industries where it's just primarily hard work and talent that are the factors for success in a lot of industries. And in writing, and it's the same in like music and art and everything. It's luck and timing are two of the biggest factors of success and those things you can't control and so it's important to know that going in so that you don't expect things to be something that they can't be.
Mindy: True. And the entertainment industry, as you're saying, any element of it. Yes. Timing, luck. The things that you can't control at all and trying to control something you can't control is that's where you start to go insane. And that's pretty easy to do in the entertainment industry.
Becca: Yeah. Yup. It really is.
Mindy: Coming up. How to deal with burnout and how to know when you're in it.
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Mindy: Let's talk about your podcast, the Smarty Pants Book Marketing podcast. You've got recent episodes that covered such topics as lead magnets, how social media helps sell books and how to find the right promotion for your book. So talk to me a little bit about your podcast. Who's your target audience? Do you speak to traditional pubs, indie self pubs, or is this advice that you have here for marketing good across the board?
Becca: So the Smarty Pants Book marketing podcast is the, uh, my mom and I did that together and she is a marketer. And so we were taking the tactic of, uh, let's look at what marketing standards are in other industries besides just books and try to apply, marketing best practice to bookselling. The target audience is really anybody who has to market. So it would include all types, both traditional and hybrid, indie, self pub, anybody who has to market their own stuff. Because of course, again, one of the unrealistic expectations of traditional publishing is that if I can just get a trad contract and I don't have to do all this marketing stuff and that's just not true anymore. And so you may not have control over your pricing like an indie does, but, but trad authors still have to do all the same stuff that Indies do. We really are marketing that towards anybody who has to do any kind of book marketing at all just so you can know what standard practices are in the industry. We don't produce new episodes of that anymore, but there's a really good set of archives cause I now do my own podcast, which is called the Quit Cast, which is about the Better, Faster stuff. So but yeah, the Smarty Pants podcast.
Mindy: Yes. I was listening to a few of them and it's pretty fascinating. Marketing is something that we all, well I would say probably most of us walked into publishing and writing have little to no experience or desire to be a marketer and you've got to do it. That's all there is to it. I see and hear and talk to so many people aspiring and already published writers who really hate it and it's like, dude, I get it, but that's part of the pizza, man.
Becca: Yeah, there's really no getting around it because when the industry moved away from having gatekeepers, which happened when we started being able to easily self publish books, it became suddenly a different landscape of marketing because the authors have more instant access to readers given things like social media. Once that changed then it became an important responsibility of every author to become their own marketing team. And even when you have a marketing team you still have to do enough of your own marketing that it's worthwhile knowing the core concepts I think
Mindy: For sure. And tell us then about the Quit Cast, which as you said is associated with your Dear Writer books. Talk about that a little bit because I know that so many of the elements of what you do with Better, Faster and with Quit Books are intertwined. So what does the Quit Cast then bring to the table?
Becca: So that is all about what, what to quit, what to keep and what to question. Like those are the sort of three different types of episodes that we have on the Quit Cast. So it's a question, the premise of things like everybody should use a planner to be more productive. So question the premise of planners make you productive but do they? Cause they don't make everybody productive. So some of us should not be buying that 2020 planner and I'm just going to say those of us who really think that we need one should look backwards and ask if we've ever been successful using planner before and if we haven't then the planner's probably not going to make us. And so just little things like that where we question these premises that we accept and then obviously the things that we need to quit doing that's very similar to the Dear Writer, You Need to Quit. And then we do these, what I call the Keep Casts, which are what to keep and that is the strengths behaviors from the Clifton strengths assessment. And we go through each one of the strengths. There are 34 of them, so there are 34 different ways that you could be great at whatever you're doing. And we go through them and I use writers who are successful who are making money or who have a lot of books out or whatever, um, who've won awards. And we take three of those writers for each strength and we interview the writers and ask them how they're using that. And then we put up a podcast about that.
Mindy: That's so neat. I worked in a high school for about 14 years as a librarian before I was able to quit and be a full time writer, but I still substitute and I'm still in the district fairly often. They had the entire staff take the Clifton assessment.
Becca: Nice.
Mindy: Yeah, it was a really cool program. Everybody took the Clifton assessment and the students did too. And so the teachers now have on their desk, they've got a little thing that lists what their top strengths are.
Becca: Oh, I love that. Yeah. What I love about what the Clifton strengths does is it takes a recognizable success pattern and it says, let's figure out how you are going to be good. So we're going to assume that you have a capacity for success because everyone does, but everybody's successful in a different way. So how do we figure out what we can expect from you or what you can expect from yourself? And once, you know, like, here's how I fit in with all of the most successful people. Because when they did this assessment, when they first started discovering this process, they did 2 million interviews of the best of the best people in the world. So like the best housekeepers at Disneyland, the best CEOs, the best basketball players, the best teachers, like they wanted to know how everyone was successful. And then they created those categories of strength based on the recognized data patterns that showed up in the research. And I love that it started from a place of data because then it's so consistently accurate for people and you can look at it and say, Oh yeah, I see those patterns in myself. And then I can tell you as a strength coach, which, well, this is how this is going to apply in your life. This is how you're going to be able to count on your own success patterns to be able to get better or better, faster, really at what you want to do.
Mindy: I love the idea of focusing on your strengths rather than trying to improve on your weaknesses because I know as someone that has a fair amount of anxiety that I manage to keep under control mostly, but you know, it's anxiety. I can't just say to myself, you need to calm down, right? Logically, yes, I'm very aware of the fact that I need to calm down and get a hold of myself, but I'm in a spiral. This isn't something that I can manage, but I know that one of my strengths is that I can do a deep dive on something. I can concentrate very deeply on something for a long focus, high focus. If I'm having anxiety about something, whatever it is, I'm going to intensely focus on something else, right? Whether it's a job or a hobby or a book. Right? It's like I'm going to go immerse myself in something else and that's going to handle my anxiety. Rather than being like, okay, let's knuckle down on this anxiety and figuring out what's going on. Then try to work on something that's been a problem your whole life. It's like, well, let's look at what you're really good at and let that alleviate what your problem is.
Becca: Yeah. Do you have intellection or ideation?
Mindy: I don't remember.
Becca: I was going to say a lot of high intellection is a common one and intellection is also one where they're not likely to produce super high numbers of books per year. Right? Because they like to think about the whole book as a process and they tend to think over and over something and sort of have that CPU that's going on in the back of their head all the time where they're always processing and that can lead to anxiety because you get caught in thought spirals, right?
Mindy: Yep, yep.
Becca: If you have high intellect and you know that you tend towards that and you know that one of the strengths of intellection is thinking over and over something looking for an action point. What you can say is, I'm wired this way. I have intellection. The anxiety is getting triggered because my intellection is looking for certainty. It's a certainty seeker. And so now that I know that, I can say, okay, what I'm looking for is this - how do I give myself that thing in the moment? And one of the things we suggest is definitely switching tracks, which is what you're doing with your high focus. There's only so much you can do about having the intellection, but you can control it if you know it's a strength and because it produces certain things and knowing where that's coming from. It's like being able to diagnose yourself with the right thing in the doctor's office to get the right medication to make sure that it doesn't recur, to make sure that you can get better. There's all this sort of element that strengths can produce if you know what they are. There's so much that you can do with it beyond just what I do beyond just the writing. Such wide application.
Mindy: You can apply it to your writing, but I mean just mental health, breaking a thought spiral - that is hard. If you know yourself, I think knowing yourself is the first step toward success in so many ways.
Mindy: You are an author as well. You write cozy mysteries and historical romance under the name RL Syme. With all of the content that you put out into the world as a marketer and as someone that is out there helping other writers and the Quit Cast and the Quit Books and Better Faster Academy, how do you find time then to also be a writer? Because it's a different track, right? Like you're, you're going away from the analytical and you're jumping into the creative.
Becca: Yeah. It's interesting that you bring that up. I was just doing a talk on, on the podcast about this because I have not written fiction since I really, really started doing this full time and I keep starting and stopping and starting and stopping. And it was one of the things that led to me being in burnout this last year was that I was trying so hard to keep up with everything that I felt like I should be doing. And I ended up having like a pretty major burnout and I realized like I was expecting myself to have the same capacity to write fiction that I had before this platform took off and it just was not a realistic expectation of myself. And so I realized that if I want to do this, it's exactly what you said, it's a different part of my brain. It's a totally different process that I use to create fiction than I do to do this analytical work.
Becca: And I really need to honor the fact that if I want to keep writing fiction, I have to take breaks in my schedule to be able to sort of shut the world out and get the fiction done. I'm going to do that at the end of this upcoming week. I'm taking a three week break so that I could just sit down and see if I can get back into the fiction mindset and I don't have a lot of expectation about it. So if I can't get the writing done, I'm not going to feel guilty about it. But I am gonna try to like shut down all the channels, access to me, and have some podcasts ready to release, post some prescheduled Facebook posts and then just go kinda hide. Cause I really can't do everything. It's we want to because it seems like it should be possible in some theoretical fantasy unicorn universe, but it's just not possible. Right. Like you'll have 24 hours and I need to sleep eight of them. It's not realistic.
Mindy: It is not. And I am so glad to hear you say that because I also of course have a podcast and I don't do the deep dive that you do with a whole platform of courses and everything like that. I have considered it, but I'm also very much aware that if I did that I would end up where you are more or less and and not having the time. I wouldn't have the time for the fiction. It's the question of having the brain space.
Becca: That's a great point. All minutes are not equal. You might get to the end of the day and two hours of like time to sit and watch Netflix, but that doesn't mean that you should be able to write with all of those minutes at the end of the day because if you don't have any creative energy left because you've used it all then or you've used all of your energy and now you can't make any creative energy. Like you don't have any, there's nothing. So you can't expect yourself to just have an unlimited supply of energy.
Mindy: I don't think I'm quite at burnout. I don't know what your actual definition of burnout is. I think I'm probably approaching it and I need to be aware of that. I have found myself saying, Mindy, you need to find something that you do that has no words. You need to get away from words because with the podcast, of course I'm speaking words with you and then if I'm reading, which is a hobby, being a writer has stripped that of being a hobby. It's very difficult for me to just sit down and read a book anymore. I'm too analytical. Audio books, it's still words. I'm listening, but it's still words and even watching TV, I with my writer's brain am deconstructing it. I've come to the point where it's like, okay, I need to go do something tactile. I need to go do something that has no words. Words are not making me happy. Now they're making me feel inundated. I'm a grinder man. I will grind it out and a lot of people that I know will also do that and that is great to a point until you, as I said, go completely insane.
Becca: Yeah. When when you have high focus, like the just as a strength, it's so easy to lose yourself when you put the blinders on. And so focus and achiever in the StrengthsFinder are a couple of the strengths that tend toward a burnout lifestyle, right? Where you tend to burn and burn and burn and then recover and then burn and burn and recover. And so it's really important to know when to pull back just enough so you don't actually hit the bottom. You can still burn hot and hard and also make the energy back. So you do things that don't require you to expend energy in order to create energy instead and then you can have a much more sustainable life, which means that sometimes we have to say no to things. It's not popular. We don't want to say no, we don't like missing out. And it's just really important to know like it's okay to take care of yourself. It's okay to watch Netflix, it's okay to go crochet, play basketball or whatever you're going to do. Like that stuff is part of the work, like rest and relaxation is what makes you able to sustain the work. And so you need it.
Mindy: I go to the gym twice a week. I have a circuit class and I have a CrossFit class. It's on Mondays and Wednesdays. And this week I was unable to go, uh, for various reasons. I had a holiday both evenings. And I feel it, like not physically, I feel it in my brain. I didn't go do that thing that I usually do that I can focus on. That is entirely physical.
Becca: If that's what gives you energy, like if that's what makes pennies for you that you can spend later, you'll feel it. And the danger is we often get to that place when we are at the busiest, when we're not making the energy back. And that's usually when it's a burnout danger, right? So I talk about the burnout and the burnout book, that there's a slide down into the pit. The pit is the burnout and you can make the slide less. Like 90 degree angle is the danger. But there is a way to make that angle more like 140 degrees and then you can come out of it quicker and so just making sure that whatever you're doing to make energy for yourself even when you get busy.
Mindy: Is it possible for listeners that might be interested to take the Clifton assessment online? Is there a way to do that?
Becca: Yeah. Actually if you go to my.gallup.com they'll let you create an account and take the test. There is a cost. There are free tests out there that people can take. I don't encourage it because they're not as valid and so I would go to my.gallup.com pay to take the test and you really only need the top five to start off with. They do offer the full 34 but I would get the top five cause you really want to focus on where am I the absolute best? Like how can I focus on just the things that are the absolute best about me? And don't take the danger of wanting to see what the bottom is so that we can really focus again on what we're not as strong in. Right? And so instead I encourage people to start with a top five and and go from there. But yeah, my.gallup.com
Mindy: Excellent. And where can listeners find your courses, your podcast, and information about you and your books online?