Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.
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Mindy: We're here with Ling Ling Huang, author of Natural Beauty, which is a body horror genre - which I think is a fantastic way to talk about a genre. It's also darkly funny, and it has all of these different elements working within it to kind of investigate the world of beauty and how far we'll go to be beautiful. So first of all, thank you for being here and if you could just tell us a little bit about Natural Beauty.
Ling Ling: Sure. Thank you so much for having me. Natural Beauty is about this really talented pianist who is at a conservatory. Because of a terrible accident that happens to her parents, she's kind of forced to give up this really promising career, and she lands at this very high paid wellness and clean beauty store. Really drinks the Kool-Aid, but also starts to uncover kind of all of these sinister, dark things about the entire industry as she stays on.
Mindy: Some of the elements in the book are really interesting in that you take elements of the beauty world that exist today, that are actually really familiar, like... How do we keep our collagen going? How do we make sure our skin still has that elasticity? How do we keep our hair in great shape? And you take it to an extreme. So like, for example, one of my favorite things... You mentioned an actual parasite that the beauty store sells that is basically releasing hundreds of mites into people's hair. And it eats all of the dirt and the oil, and it keeps their hair really, really clean and their scalp really, really clean. But they also have a hive of mites on their head. But people are willing to do that. And of course, for an exorbitant price. And I think it is so interesting... You found these fears that we all have. Especially women. Our looks and comparisons and getting older and all of the elements of our lives that are difficult, you just kind of went, okay, what if? How far would we go?
Ling Ling: Yes. That was kind of difficult because there were so many ideas that I had, and then I would do a quick Google and, you know, it would be something that's already in development or used somewhere in the world. If I wanted to make sure this was a fiction novel, I had to really reach, and they are kind of all things that I could see being used in the next 5 to 10 years. I know it sounds kind of gross on the face of it, the whole mites situation, but I feel like I know those people who would love just being able to wake up and roll out of bed with great hair and not need to shower.
Mindy: Of all the treatments that you mentioned, that one was the one where I was like, "Oh yeah, I would do that."
Ling Ling: I feel like I could have used that my entire college experience.
Mindy: When we talk about this book, I often hear it described as body horror and as like a horror novel in this like social sense. So, was that your intention when you first started writing it?
Ling Ling: It definitely wasn't my intention, and actually I didn't quite realize it was a horror novel and especially a body horror. It's something that early readers were saying about it, and that was so interesting to me. But I almost feel like it's impossible to write about a woman's experience, especially in this country, without going into the horror genre. I'm happy with where it landed, but I was definitely surprised and it wasn't my intention.
Mindy: It fits very well there because it is horrifying. One of the things that I particularly enjoyed that I want to talk about as a feminist... One of the things that you point out is that they're all kind of competing against each other in a way. They're friendly, and of course there's a little bit of a relationship with our main character and Helen. But they are also always comparing one another to themselves. And if someone else's lashes are a little bit longer, they're going to go get that silkworm treatment. They're going to tweak themselves to keep up. We do that now. We don't have to have special sci fi beauty treatments. We do that now.
Ling Ling: Yeah, for sure. It's something, especially with like influencer culture and things like that. I teach a lot of young violin students, and so many of them struggle with what they see on the screen all the time. I remember talking to a 12 year old about her eating disorder, and it had gotten so bad. And it's because, you know, you can look at hundreds, thousands of amazingly beautiful people, and you just have this constant desire and need to keep up. And it can feel so overwhelming. And I've definitely seen it reflected in every workplace that I've worked in, whether it be music or wellness. It's tragic because we kind of lose touch with what we actually would want to look like, any of our actual interests, and we get disconnected from our bodies because we're so interested in changing them on a cellular level. Which is horrific. I would have loved to do more of that, maybe even an entire book, because it is so complex. The ways that women love each other and support each other but feel the need to keep up with one another and outdo each other.
Mindy: Absolutely. And it sabotages our relationships with our bodies, but also our relationships with other women. I think that society, especially Western society, does a really good job of making us believe that other women are the enemy.
Ling Ling: Absolutely. It's something I definitely bought into for way too long. I think only in my like early to mid 20s did I start reading enough great feminist writers and thinkers that made me understand that it was just this system that had made us really competitive with one another, and it kept us distracted from all of the real issues that need our attention.
Mindy: Yeah, absolutely. It's a divide and conquer. Patriarchy wins.
Ling Ling: Yes.
Mindy: Something else that I thought was really interesting that you touched on was the idealized beauty being a Western image, a European image. One of the things that our main character changing her appearances in pretty drastic ways, but there isn't a lot of description about her. However, when she is asked to come up with a different name, a less ethnic name to have on her nametag or to use to introduce herself when she's on the floor in the store, which I want to follow up on that in a second, she's asked to pick a different name. And then she has a conversation with another employee that she never thought was anything other than a white woman who actually wasn't, and her appearance had changed so much. And what was what was your intention there?
Ling Ling: You know, I grew up in Houston, Texas, and until like middle school, there was one other East Asian classmate that I had. I would have always wanted to have the main character's trajectory... to wake up with my hair getting lighter. I used so much sun-in and lemon juice. It was something that I would have really wanted. And in many ways, the products that are sold to us at any beauty store kind of uphold this ideal of beauty that is very Westernized and Eurocentric. And so I wanted to take that to the extreme. What if I had gotten everything I wanted as an elementary and middle schooler? What would my life be like now? I think for a long time I just didn't realize that there was something to lose in assimilating. Every time that's happened in my life, when I've achieved some goal that I've been taught to want and which I haven't really questioned, like, Is this what I want? I've been so disappointed that it doesn't actually equal happiness.
Mindy: That is so accurate. Oh, my goodness. I know this is your debut novel, which we should talk about in a second. I was trying to get published for ten years, and it was such a struggle. And last month, my 12th book came out. If 44 year old Mindy could have spoken to 30 year old Mindy and been like, Dude, you're going to be living off your writing income. You're going to have 12 books out. I would have been like, Man, she has her shit together. Like that 44 year old Mindy is on cloud nine. And it's like, no. I mean, I literally have everything I could want, and I still have shitty days.
Ling Ling: Yeah. That's been some of the experience of this. I keep trying to remember like, remember just even a year ago or two years ago how many antidepressants you were on because like you couldn't get an agent? But it's hard because I think I've internalized such a large amount of anxiety that any new opportunity kind of becomes a new opportunity to be anxious.
Mindy: That's the truth, because you have to make a decision. And then it's like, "Oh, I can't do that."
Ling Ling: Exactly. So there's just a lot of anxiety. I remember feeling kind of the same way with getting a puppy during the pandemic. I was like, "This is supposed to be the happiest moment of my life. Why is it so difficult?" I struggled with really bad eating disorders. I would reach like the goal weight that I had set for myself, and I would realize, "Oh, it just means that I'm at this weight. It doesn't make me happy or beautiful or white." Any of the things I had kind of been hoping for and didn't realize.
Mindy: Yeah, we never stop chasing something. I am probably in the best physical shape I've ever been in in my life, and I work out a lot. I probably weigh a healthy weight in terms of like fat versus muscle. I look better than I probably ever have in my life, and I'm stronger than I've ever been in my life. And I'm like, "God damn it, I have gray hair." It's like there's always... We're never happy. We're never happy.
Ling Ling: Are you telling me that women can't have it all?
Mindy: I am. I am saying this.
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Mindy: I want to get back to talking about characters name, and I want to talk a little bit just about the beauty industry in general. A friend of mine is an esthetician, and she used to work at a pretty high end place where they worked on your face and you got massages and facials and she worked with body hair and waxing and all those things. And she worked at a really nice chain, but like a very high end chain. And she has a very pretty name, and there was nothing about it that was ethnic or anything like that. She is a white girl, and she has a really cool name. And they were like, "You need to pick a different name." And all of the girls on the floor had fake names. It was their work name. And they would give them a list of names and have them pick from it, because there was just a certain style and aesthetic that this particular chain wanted to have with their girls. And that was right down to what your name is. I just think that's bizarre. But it happens in real life. That is just a common practice at this particular chain. When I read that in Natural Beauty, where they have a conversation with our main character about picking a different name and they don't even really sugarcoat it. They just want it to be a whiter name. I just thought that was fascinating. And I know that you have a background that you did work in the high end beauty and wellness industry for a while. So, how much of that informed the book? Like the name changing? Is that an element that came in from real life?
Ling Ling: So I didn't know that that happens in real life. It's just been something my entire life that's kind of been implied to me and to other friends who have East Asian names. "That's an interesting name" or "that's difficult to spell"... Little things where you really feel like you're making someone else's life harder by having the name that you have. And the main character doesn't have a name because growing up, I kind of felt like I was a blank for whatever people's projections were. I do remember in school someone... I think it was like a teacher suggested that I have an English name. What about like Courtney? Yeah.
Mindy: Okay. That's horrible. I want to follow up on what you just said, because as a writer, I was fascinated as I was reading to discover about maybe 100 pages in, maybe 150 pages in... All of a sudden I was like, "Shit! I don't know her name." And then I realized that you purposefully never named your main character. And I was just like, "Oh my God. That is amazing." So I offer editorial services. Because the book is written in first person, when I'm reading first person, I will see people forget to let the reader know the name because it's just not something that comes up often, like in conversation or anything like that. So I actually, as a reader, didn't notice it until I was about a third of the way through the book. I thought it was very clever. Then later on, when she does adopt a whiter name, that name comes into use in the narrative. What was your driver there?
Ling Ling: I don't think about my identity as like a fixed thing, and names have a way of kind of pinning us down. And so at first it started as like, well, maybe not having a name so that everyone can kind of step into this person's shoes. Let's see where that takes us. But then I really liked the idea that everyone in her workplace would just project what they thought onto her as I've experienced so much. And also there is this stereotype often that East Asian people are passive. And so I kind of wanted to play with that and to see how it would shift for a reader to not have the name, the label, and then to have one suddenly. And would it make sense? Would it be really jarring for them suddenly to have such a Western name? It's always interesting when I meet someone and ask them what their name is, and it's something I really don't expect. If I go to a Chinese restaurant or something and they tell me their name is Courtney. And I know that's their work name. In some ways it's good. It probably protects certain people from customers. It's probably a choice a lot of them have made. Most of my friends who have not Western names, we have a Starbucks name because we don't want to have to spell something every time. So that was kind of the decision. And it also helped as a writer to be really close to the main character, to not have a name.
Mindy: And I think it works for the reader, too. It's like as we're reading, there isn't a very distinct wall between yourself and the narrator. And so I thought that was a really interesting and subtle literary technique that you use there. I enjoyed it. You are a violinist. You perform. You travel. You are a professional musician. In the book, our main character is also a greatly talented musician, but her instrument is the piano. So why did you choose to not use your own instrument in that way? Or do you also play the piano?
Ling Ling: I did play the piano, but pretty poorly. And I quit 20 years ago, I think. My mom's a violin teacher, and my dad's a piano teacher. I think there's always been a little bit of guilt for focusing on my mom's instrument. And then there are so many great piano pieces that I wish I had gotten more advanced so that I could have played. And that's kind of the music that I listen to a lot because I get triggered by most violin music, or it becomes difficult to think about anything else if it's happening. But I love listening to piano concertos and sonatas, and they're really something I love running to. I love writing to. It's also so much easier to romanticize something that I don't do for work. I wanted to talk about classical music because I love it so much, but this kind of removed me enough to do it where it was really fun and felt like I was creating something new.
Mindy: That's so interesting. I also played the piano for a pretty long period of time as a child. I enjoyed it, and I practiced a lot and I was like, good enough. I didn't have any technique. I wanted to play loud, and I wanted to play fast. Those were always my goals.
Ling Ling: Nice.
Mindy: And that's what I did. I mean, I beat the crap out of the keys, and my piano teacher was the kindest, sweetest, like church organist. And she would just be like, "This is supposed to be in this time signature, and it is supposed to be this loud. What are you doing?" And I'm like, "No. Fast and loud. Fast and loud. That's what's great. That's what... I'm doing fast and loud." So it's like I am just not... Not a good musician in that way. But one of the things that I thought you did a great job of illustrating in the book, and people that aren't inside of that world probably aren't aware. But, you know, I would go to competitions and festivals and things like that. And man, it is fairly cutthroat. People are extremely serious about their craft and about their instrument and what they do. Again, as we were saying, women looking at each other as competitors rather than friends. And that's also there for our main character when she's thinking about her past with music and being at a conservatory and the competitive nature of the relationships that she had. Because she was so good, and everybody knew it. And so therefore she was to be hated. She was to be toppled. And it was just something I thought was extremely interesting because even in my limited experience of the music world, just going to competitions and things and meeting people who were so deadly serious about what they were doing.
And it's like I was a musician, but I was also an athlete. And so it's like I would play sports where you're knocking each other down. You're getting hit with a ball. You're going to bleed. You're going to have scars from your sport. And so I was always kind of like, "Wow. You guys take the piano really seriously." But that's their corner. That's their jam. And they are very serious about what they do and it can mean so much. So, were you using that element of the competition and the comparisons from her childhood and music and then drawing that forward into the beauty world?
Ling Ling: Yes, definitely. I think I've experienced that competitiveness in both of those industries, and I think people in those industries... It can be really cultish the way that people in classical music and people in clean beauty, especially in wellness... It's like a cultish fanaticism toward what they think is good for your body and what they'll allow themselves to spend their time on. It's so intense, and they both really kind of believe the American dream that if you work hard enough, you can get the perfect functioning body and you can get to whatever performance hall you want. I was really inspired by this devotional aspect of both worlds, and I started this novel in my notes app on these long commutes I had between this job at a high end beauty store. And I was just drawing all of these parallels between the world I had just left and the world I was trying to step into. And maybe I'll discover that writing is similar. I don't know yet. But if you want to take something seriously, if you really want to be competitive, there are those people who are like that and you can go as far in that direction as you want.
Mindy: That's very true. I will say I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the publishing world. I have yet to run into animosity or a competitive feel. I definitely have moments where I'm like, "You know, I don't think that book is very good, and everyone loves it." But the truth is that in publishing, in particular, we always say a rising tide lifts all boats. If there's a book that your publisher has printed that is doing extraordinarily well and making millions of dollars and you're kind of pissed because it's not your book and you don't think it's that good... Your publisher just made a lot of money off this book and they might be able to pay you more next time for your book because of this book's success. If a book is out there that you don't really like that well and everybody else does, that book is going to find someone that maybe wouldn't read otherwise and turn them into a reader, and maybe that person will find you eventually. That's just how I've always... Well, I shouldn't say always. I had to come to that. But it's a good way to think about the publishing industry, and I think most of us do operate that way. I hope that you will find that publishing doesn't have that sharks blood in the water feel.
Ling Ling: Most people at a competition or in the music world, you're playing all the same pieces, and the beauty world, you're chasing the same beauty ideal. So and no one is like, you know, writing from the same exact formula for the same character and plot and stuff. There is so much more room. It hasn't felt that way, and I think it's probably unlikely. Don't want to rule it out because of some of the experiences I've had in in music, which is sad.
Mindy: So Natural Beauty is your debut novel. It just came out. What else have you got coming? Are you working on something new?
Ling Ling: I did immediately start working on another book. I think out of Imposter Syndrome. Right after I got this book deal, I was like, "Can I even do this again?" So I started working on something and I think, you know, this debut novel is so personal because I've worked in both industries mentioned. I'm also the daughter of immigrants. I wanted to challenge myself to see if I could write something totally different. The second thing that I've worked on, I don't think that it's truly a horror. But it does stay kind of speculative, and it's been fun knowing less about the fields that I'm talking about. This one is kind of more based in the performance art world, which is a world that fascinates me, but that I have no connection to. I have no idea what a career looks like for me. I just hope that I'll get to keep writing for fun. To have published novels would be amazing, but even just getting to write for fun is really great.
Mindy: Last thing. Why don't you let listeners know where they can find the book Natural Beauty, and also where they can find you online?
Ling Ling: Sure. So Natural Beauty should be in any stores. You can also find it online, Bookshop.org, Audible. I love the person who is reading the audiobook - Carolyn Kang. I love her voice. Instagram is at violing squared. V-I-O-L-I-N-G-S-Q-U-A-R-E-D.
Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.
