Lauren Kate On Writing Within The Publishing Industry & Meeting Your Heroes

March 21, 2022 Mindy McGinnis

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: So we're here with Lauren Kate, author of By Any Other Name. I am personally excited about this one because it is set within the publishing world, that of course always has an interest for me as a writer and someone that is also operating within that world. But I think it also offers a great opportunity for readers who I think are instinctively interested in that.

Lauren: Having worked in the publishing world, it was such a fun and charged experience all the time. It really was as exciting, I think, as it's often portrayed in books and movies. If you enjoy books, being surrounded by them, talking about them non-stop, it’s very fun, and I love getting to bring that to the page in this book.

Mindy: One of the things that I think is interesting about this book, By Any Other Name, is that it's not not a biographical book, but in some ways it is based on things that happened to you in your life is that right?

Lauren: I put all of these pieces that are auto-biographical together and let them explode into something a bit more fictional, but yes, many pieces of this story that are based on my life. When I worked as a young editor at the publishing house, I worked with a really reclusive, mysterious author who I idolized and had based a lot of my ideas about life on that writer's books. So that alone, and the mystery around who that person actually was, was always in the back of my mind, and something I wanted to explore in a story. I never knew that I was gonna make it a comedy, I never knew that it was going to be romantic and fun in this way. That is one piece drawn from real life. And the other one was a big dramatic break-up that I had on the back of a motorcycle on the cliffs of the Amalfi Coast that I transformed to make myself the hero that I wish I had been in the moment.

Mindy: Tell me. Hindsight is 2020. Breakups. Oh my God, I've been through my share.

Lauren: And yeah, you get to retell it the way you wish it would have gone.

Mindy: You get to retell it so that you come off perfect. To open it up for listeners a little bit, why don't you let them know what By Any Other Name is about?

Lauren: Sure, so the main character of the story is Lanie, an editor at a publishing house, and she works on the books of this very prominent reclusive romance novelist, and she, like me, has based a lot of her ideas about what love is and what a heroine, and a love story is supposed to be like on this writer's books. But she's never met the writer. She has a vision in her mind of what they are, and it is a slightly older female mentor that she looks up to as a model. When she meets the writer in person, there's a circumstance that forces them to meet each other, she is shocked and horrified to learn the writer of her favorite books is a man, and he's kind of a jerk. This throws a lot of her life into chaos. You start second guessing all of the choices that she’s made based on these books that have meant so much to her, her career, she's in a relationship kind of inspired by these novels, she's engaged to be married, and all of that begins to crumble. And as it does, she is surprised to begin to fall in love with the author of these books.

Mindy: So many things going on there. You do move and work and participate in the romance industry, you have these break-up stories in your past, we all do. I don't know that this is't necessarily true, but I do think I, as an individual, tend to short change real life men because they are not living up to their fictional counterparts. When I think about the romance industry and what I thought a hero was supposed to be...

Lauren: Exactly, these other guys need to step it up.

Mindy: Having had these experiences as a reader - in a book, like this guy is perfect! As a writer then, kind of viewing it through this lens of - This is a woman writing the ideal man. And I think if I were to discover it was actually a man writing it… I think that that would throw a little bit, I don't know if that's sexist or not, but I think it would.

Lauren: And these are the questions and the arguments, what are our expectations about the origins of the stories that we believe in, and why do we assign different gender roles to them, and what does it mean to have them challenged? What's possible when you look beyond your conception of who gets to tell what story?

Mindy: And I think that's really important because I have definitely had moments as a writer when I'm writing a male character, where I will seek out male friends and be like, Hey, in this situation, if a male reacts like this, what's the internal? Because I can see the external, but what's going on internally? Because if I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't be divorced.

Lauren: I do ask my husband. Sometimes I'll write the male side and then I'll share it with him and he'll make a couple of edits, like just change a sentence or two, and it changes the entire interiority. That is a fascinating thing that I would never have known a man would feel that way.

Mindy: Yeah, and I think that men get short changed very often in the emotional depth.

Lauren: That was an interesting thing to explore with this character too, because he's all about emotional depth, he's writing vulnerable men and women as his career for a number of books, and that's his particular fascination. And so a lot of it is on the sleeve for Lanie and for the reader to experience. I guess the question for me was then, if there's a virtual or the writerly version of this person, and then there's the real life version of this person, which one is true? Which one is real? The walls that come up in the real person, is that artifice?

I like to think about the deep and true friendship that these characters developed online and via email and via books before they ever met in person, I didn't wanna discount that, and that was a thing that the main character had to overcome this feeling that... Yes, they do actually have a history, they are actually friends, they are building on something that they started that was real, even though she was operating under an assumption that was incorrect. She has to come to peace with - Was that a lie or was that my own mis-characterization of who this person was?

Mindy: Yeah, and that's really interesting. That's a really good question. It's like if you're connecting with that person, knowing or even not knowing what their gender is? Because I grew up and I assume you did as well in a world of interacting with screen names and their gender wasn't necessarily inferred by their name. So I had a friend that I became pretty close with that was a fellow writer on a writer's forum, we would just be interacting with each other on the forum, and then there would be some DMs, and then, you know, that relationship changed and became more of a friendship. Because I think that when the internet first became a thing, it was really a question for a lot of people, whether you can have online friends... Is that a real thing? And now I think people realize, yes, it is.

Lauren: We surrender.

Mindy: You have a real relationship with this person, but I didn't know if that person was a man or a woman. We were just having these conversations and connecting about concepts and ideas and humor and our opinions about other people, and it didn't matter.

Lauren: Did you ever find out?

Mindy: Yes, it was a man and he ended up becoming a woman. We had an interesting conversation where I was talking to this person and they were like, Hey, you know, I know that we haven't actually talked on the phone, or you haven't seen me in a while, and I'm just letting you know this is a thing that happened, just like FYI. I was like, Well, you know, for two or three years of our friendship, I didn't know what your gender was, so it doesn't actually matter now either.

Lauren: Now, that is remarkable. That's a really cool story.

Mindy: I connected with you as a human person. Whatever else is going on. It doesn't matter.

Lauren: Exactly.

Mindy: It's an interesting way to view human relationships, and I think once she begins making the connection into romance and falling for him, I do understand why she would then be like, Well, wait a minute, is this predicated upon a lie?

Lauren: And she has a lot of questions, I think because it rocked her so much to realize that there was a man behind the stories that were shaping her ideas of how to be a woman. She has a lot of ethical questions about what she's perpetrating for the millions of women who read this writer's books. And she doesn't want to be part of this lie, if it is a lie, that's the crux of what she's struggling with. Even as she's trying to get him to write that next book that he's way past his deadline for and even as she's falling in love with him. And of course he's able to write all of these wrongs in the end. I really liked making him reckon with the lie or the misconception that he had been living under for years, he has a public reckoning with that, that made me care for him a great deal.

Mindy: Was that something you planned or was that just like a character move that took you by surprise?

Lauren: I did always plan on the truth coming out to the public within this world, but originally I had a more of a nemesis character who exposed the back story. And what ultimately happened as I refined the draft and moved deeper into my revision, was I realized that it had to originate from the character and he had to make a choice to come clean, be open with his readership. That shouldn't have come from anywhere else, that was the change.

Mindy: Organic and internal choice rather than being forced is really important.

Lauren: It's hard to see in the outlining stage or the first draft because you know it's gotta happen, it's just not as clear how it has to happen or how the characters are gonna feel about it when it happens. For me, the second draft is like where the beautiful things begin to happen in my stories and begin to feel like things are clicking into place. And so realizing that and knowing this has to be a self-directed move and the bravery required for that. It feels really good.

Mindy: For me, when I'm writing a first draft, I'm learning those characters as I'm going, no matter how much planning. I don't really plan a lot, but I will be living with them inside my head for some time before I start writing it down, and I think that I know them, but the act of writing them is where I actually learn them. And oftentimes I've written that first draft, and when I go back to the beginning, when I'm editing, when I'm doing a second draft, I have to adjust the first five to six chapters because who they are changed.

Lauren: I like the little bread crumbs that my subconscious leaves for me. In this book, I kept mentioning something about her father, and then I would mention something about her grandmother. I wrote the whole first draft, her mom never came on the page and I was like, Oh, I gotta put the mom in here somewhere, why is it the mom never weighing in on this? And I started to look closer and I was like, the mom, she's not here. I can't find her, and then I realized that the mom was dead and that her death was this formative experience that already had echoes in other places of the story waiting for me to just pick them up and use them. So many things fell into place. Once I realized she had this space in her heart that was left by her mom's death, I was just able to sort of move into the right places to address that, that I never saw coming.

Mindy: Yes, I had a character recently, in my 2023 release, who was supposed to be Type A, good girl, and when I started writing her, she was mad, she was angry, and there would be a lot of resentment and not necessarily sniping, but just internal anger that she bottled up and kept a lid on. And whenever I was writing her externally, what was going on with her internally was very different, and I was just like, Well, hello, I didn't know that was in there.

Lauren: You're the only one who gets to see that side of them. They're not showing anyone else in their world this.

Mindy: Right, and it ended up being absolutely perfect, and even driving the plot and changing the character. She spoke to me, I was like, if she's an angry person... Well, this changes everything.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. Now you have your work cut out for you. That's amazing,

Mindy: I love when that happens. When they become real people, then I think you know that you've really hit something.

Lauren: Thank you, thank you for being real. I don't have to do the work now.

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Mindy: So you've written across genres, you've written YA, You have written historical, obviously, you are also writing romcom. So I also write across genres and I get a lot of questions that I don't wanna ask you, because I know what it's like to have someone say - how does your process change? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just writing a book. I think my question to you is more like, how do you prepare your readership for this? Do you look for crossover? Do you think people are following you, or are you not worried about that and you're just writing what’s in your heart?

Lauren: I am just writing what's in my heart. To me, the experience of writing every book is the same, and I almost feel like all my books, whether they're set 400 years ago or funny or super serious with theological implications, whatever the book is. To me, it feels like it's kind of the same story. It circles the same questions about how empowering love is. I think that's just a preoccupation in all of the things that I write, and they have different tones, but they are at their core coming from the same place for me.

I just wrote my first middle grade novel, and it's the first thing I've ever written that doesn't have like an erotic romance of its core. But it has a best friend romance, that really intense female friendship between two girls who are pre-puberty, they're not in love or even having crushes yet, they just are deep best friends. And I found that even writing that relationship was so similar to exploring a romance, dealing with so many of the same possibilities and frictions, and so again, it's like even when I'm going really far away from the thing that I think I do. I'm still doing the thing that I do.

Mindy: I agree. My books are all about gray areas of morality and human experience, that's what every book is about. What is right, what is wrong? Do those things exist? And how do we behave in the world, morally?

Lauren: You can circle that in any number of ways, but we all have our own personal preoccupations that they're going to crop up in our writing no matter what.

Mindy: Agreed, agreed. And I think as a reader, I like finding those elements and identifying them, in an author, and I can trace that thread through all of their books, and it really does feel like there's an intimacy there.

Lauren: That's true. I'm a big fan of Madeline Miller's books and just reading The Song of Achilles and Circe back to back, and I read Circe a couple of times 'cause I was teaching it, I was starting to see things. Obviously, they're both about mythology, but deeper than that, I'm noticing there are all these things going on with unloving parents and a child who should have gotten better parents than their luck of the draw dealt them. I do love to notice little tropes like that and think about how they echo throughout the writer's canon.

Mindy: I struggle with it a little bit because I believe in the death of the author. I want the work to stand separate. I think that the author's opinion, even intent, sometimes doesn't matter. Once I have written a book, it has passed beyond me, and everyone is going to do with what they will or will not with it, and I don't think I get to direct that anymore. There is some danger in that too, because I don't wanna be misinterpreted, but I also would never tell someone that they're wrong.

Lauren: Yeah, and they can't possibly be wrong. I think it's funny that you mentioned that because in By Any Other Name, when Lanie first meets Noah in person, they have an argument about the death of the author and if that's possible, and what Roland Barthes meant in his essay and they really pick that one part quite ferociously. I think that's a fascinating question.

Mindy: I do too. I think it's super important. I have to try to, especially in today's world, but it stands true for many things, I have to sometimes look at an individual, a writer an artist, to singer or whatever they are, if their personal life is something that I find or their public actions are something that I find reprehensible, but I love their books or I love their song. I do struggle with... It's like, Okay, how do I handle this? Am I supporting them by buying their music? Or interacting with it? Or am I just going to separate the art from the artist and say, I like this song?

Lauren: I mean, I think that the art is always already separate from the artist, but I can imagine some of the artists that you're referencing, and I know the struggle. It's a strange struggle, especially to be a true fan of someone who you don't agree with.

Mindy: I think it's really difficult. If they're already dead, I don't struggle with it as much, so that's easier. Don't meet your heroes. I haven't, but I also don't really have any... I try very hard to keep those things separate, like we talked about, keep the artist and the art separate. I think it's important. I really do. I think that you need to experience whatever it is, the piece, apart from knowing anything about the author, and if you are driven by what you've experienced - that you feel like, Oh, I think I could connect with this person. I want to know more about them. It can bastardize both your experience of the person and the art. So yeah, it's a question that I've kind of always had. And of course, now moving in the actual world of publishing and authors where I will meet people, I have yet to have the experience where I was like, Oh wow, that was a serious let down...

Lauren: As a child, I was obsessed with Louis Sachar. I'm still kind or am. And I remember meeting him at a book festival a few years ago, and just couldn't not fan-girl. I really went for it, and he was so kind, very friendly and everything, but it was like - I realized what it's like to be on that side of the equation, and I simply could not hold in my enthusiasm. I became very aware that I'm meeting a hero, I'm actually doing it. I know that you know this too, the solitary nature of what we do 95% of our time, to ever have somebody say to you, Your book meant something to me, whether their enthusiasm level is off the charts or whatever, it is a deeply moving experience.

Mindy: It’s why I do it. Obviously it's nice to have an income, but I mean, I got an email the other day from someone, it literally was identifying the threads in my books and said, You've changed the way that I look at the world. It is a beautiful feeling, and I have yet to be on the other side of that where I just kinda lose my cool

Lauren: One day, you won't be able to reign it in. And it'll be good.

Mindy: I look forward to making a complete ass of myself. So last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find the book By Any Other Name, and where they can find you online?

Lauren: You can get the book anywhere books are sold. Online, my handle is generally Lauren Kate books everywhere on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, all those spots, and yeah, I would love to connect with any readers out there.

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Mary McCoy on Jumping Genres & Misleading Representations of Romantic Love in YA

August 16, 2021 Mindy McGinnis

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Mindy: We're here with Mary McCoy, author of Dead to Me, Camp So and So and also I, Claudia. Her forthcoming book, Indestructible Object, is about a Memphis girl who starts an investigative podcast to figure out whether love exists after her personal life goes up in flames. So with that backlist and with this upcoming book, it's pretty clear that you do a lot of genre hopping, which is something that I do as well. So I would love to talk about that. First of all, maybe your thoughts on why you are a genre hopping writer and then the thoughts on whether publishing is kind to that or not.

Mary: It's funny, I was thinking about that before we started talking and I'm like, why do I do that? Because the first answer that came to my head was - I'm trying to entertain myself when I write. I think it's more than that. I think it also speaks to the kind of reader that I've always been. Like I've never been a reader who just reads one kind of thing. I've always read across genres, non-fiction, fiction, even as an adult. I read books for children, books for young adults. I read a lot of adult fiction, too. So I think it makes sense that you write the kind of books that you want to read. Why do you do it?

Mindy: It's a great question and my response has been that I write widely because I read widely. So all of my inspiration, any ideas that I have or stories they can come from anywhere, focus on anything. So it's something that I just believe has always been part of my wide curiosity as well. I'm just like you. I read everything. I read nonfiction. I read fiction. I read Y.A. I read for adults. I don't read romance. That's just not my thing. But I will read anything as far as genre goes. I don't mean to be particular, but I don't understand just reading in one genre. I know people that do. I don't think I could ever have that kind of diet in my reading. So I read widely. And I think that that means that any of my ideas and any of my inspiration also happens across a wide spectrum.

Mary: Something my agent actually pointed this out to me, that this is something I do. She said, It seems like when you start a project, you have also set yourself some kind of little challenge. I think that's true. I think whenever I'm working on a project, I want to tell a story. But I also have set some sort of... like I think that this might be just outside my abilities. And I want to see if I can grab it. So I don't know, maybe that's why I do it as well. Like, I'm trying to grow as a writer.

Mindy: Well, I think that's a really good point. I know with my book A Madness So Discreet, that one is historical. And when I wrote it while I was getting ready to write it, I was really excited about it. And I was doing all this research and looking at everything that I had going on and really just like, yeah, this is going to be great. And then when it came time to write it, I kept putting it off. I researched for 18 months before I even started writing it. And a lot of the reason why is because I was afraid that I would not be able to pull this off because it's historical and it's a mystery. And my main character is a selective mute. So there wasn't a lot of chance to be working with dialogue.

So, I mean, it was a huge challenge. My book that came out in 2020 is called Be Not Far From Me, it's about a girl that is lost in the woods. It's a survival book. It's basically like Hatchet but with a girl. She is alone in the woods, Ninety eight percent of that book.

Mary: How do you do that? That’s got to be damn hard to write.

Mindy: When I started writing it and I was just like, I would come and I would sit down in front of my laptop and I'll be like, OK, so what's going on now? Oh, yeah, she's in the woods. There's no one to talk to.

Mary: Just her own terrible, terrible thoughts.

Mindy: Many of my friends that are writers have sent me messages or emailed me because they actually saw that challenge. I'll get emails from readers. They're going, gosh, I love this book, thank you. But I get an email from a writer and they're like, how the hell did you do that? And I like those challenges, changing things up. I think you're right. I think that's a really good point. Switching things around to challenge yourself

Mary: Like in Indestructible Object a lot of that story is told in podcast transcripts. And like that was something that I wanted to play around with. But part of the story is the main character is running around trying to get her parents to tell her the story that they do not really want to tell her, over the course of the book, trying to draw that story out from them and then working that into the narrative as well. Because - and this is something my editor pointed out to me - when you're writing a young adult contemporary novel, the point of the book can't be getting to the bottom of her parent's mystery. You have to keep the story focused on her and her life and what she's going through. And that has to be the center of the story. That was an interesting challenge as well. You know, I love a book where someone digs up family secrets.

Mindy: I write small town stuff, so, yeah, family secrets are always big,

Mary: You and I have a weird amount in common in addition to our alliterative names, like we both grew up because I grew up in western Pennsylvania in a small town. Used to be teen librarians.

Mindy: Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that probably also contributed to my reading and writing widely because I was always reading things that normally I wouldn't, so that I would be able to do good at my job and be able to, you know, give the books to kids that needed those books. So, yeah, I think that that definitely contributed to me reading widely and writing widely as well.

Mary: Yeah. And it's funny, I'm not a young adult librarian anymore. I'm now an art librarian and I feel like I'm not nearly as well versed in what's going on in young adult literature as I was when I worked with it with teens. And I miss it a little bit. There are times I'm like, oh, what's on trend right now? What is everyone reading? I have no idea, unless I go on Twitter, but it's a terrible place to be.

Mindy: Well, I don't go on Twitter unless I have to. Weirdly, a lot of people that I know had this problem - COVID hit and it should have been like our time for readers. We should be like the happiest people on Earth. And I had a hard time reading over COVID for whatever reason, nothing was speaking to me. I've been really struggling with reading lately, but part of it is because I'm writing so much, I get no breaks from words. It's all I do is words, words, words. So when it's time to relax, sometimes I'm like, no, no more words.

Mary: I had this a similar problem the first few months of the pandemic and actually the book that was kind of my drought breaker was Felix Everafter by Kacen Callendar. I read that book and it was just like a beam of sunshine. And I don't know, it opened a floodgate and I was able to read after that. I was also like all during 2020, pretty much from March 2020 through December 2020, I was on deadline. I was doing all of it, doing my revisions on Indestructible Object. And I discovered that being on deadline during a pandemic works pretty well. Being Focused on something that is the very immediate future, trying to be a creative person, writing first drafts during a pandemic is proving to be slightly more difficult. I’m just having a really hard time getting into that headspace right now, which… it's never really happened. I've never experienced it. I wouldn't call it writer's block because I know what I want to write. My body's just like, no, no.

Mindy: I understand I'm in a similar position and I don't want to write. It's when I sit down in front of my laptop... I mean, it's always work, but it feels kind of like drudgery. And yeah, I don't know why. It's partially because I'm an outdoor person and I don't like the way my publishing schedule is currently set up where I'm drafting in the summer. It makes me sad. I want to be outside and I want to be working. And it's like, you know, my flower beds don't look good. My garden is a mess. I haven't even been out there. And that tends to drag me down a little bit. So that's part of it for me. If my drafting was in the winter months, I would be probably much happier. Speaking of that genre jumping, when you talk about the different types of books that you read, but then also what you write, do you think that publishing or maybe your sales numbers would be kinder to you if you just picked a thing and stuck with it?

Mary: I don't know the answer to that. I feel like I will keep doing this as long as I can get away with it. And I feel like maybe at some point I'll be told no and I'll listen to that. But I don't know. I also wonder if at some point I won't just return and go full circle in a way. Like the book that I would like to try to write next is a mystery. My first book was a historical mystery. I feel like along the way through my four books I have, I don't know, that there's definitely a through line, but there's a trajectory.

I heard from a young reader who has read all four of my books, and she said, I liked this one the best. I feel like you just keep getting better. Which was really nice to hear from someone. I was just talking to a friend the other night who said the same thing. And that's good to hear.

And I think about my first book, Dead to Me, which is like this Hard-Boiled detective novel, and I remember having conversations with my editor while I was working on that book. And the whole time she was like, could you give her some feelings, too? She's a real cool customer. And I was like, no, she can't have feelings. That's too hard. And then Indestructible Object is nothing but feelings and characters who talk about their feelings all day long and are either really in touch with their feelings or trying to be. That's a nice journey to see, because I think that in some way reflects something of a personal journey, not just a creative one.

Mindy: I've had similar feedback over the course of writing, for as long as I've been writing and having my critique partners be like, how does she feel right now? And I would have so many comment bubbles on the sides where it was like - and she feels how? And people really pushing me to dig into those feelings and that internal monologue that is definitely part of the craft that you get better at. You don't necessarily see it at first. When you are a newer writer or an early writer, you are just thinking plot most of the time. All the time. But you want to get everything down on the page so that you don't lose it. And that is a progression of events. I know that I have gotten better as I get older and I'm writing more. I don't have to go back in and layer in feelings as much as I used to.

Mary: Something that I feel like I've gotten better at over four books is making that translation between what's in your head and what actually shows up on the page, because I would miss that early on. I would know what the character looked like and I would know what they were feeling, but I hadn't actually written it. And it would take feedback from critique partners to realize that like, oh, I never actually put that on the page.

Mindy: I depended too heavily on inferences. So like. but like in this dialogue right here, you can see that that's how she feels and it varies. But you're right, you're the author, so you already know how they feel or what they look like or what they're wearing. And so you don't necessarily put it on the page, but you feel like you see it that way because that's what it looks like. And you didn't necessarily do a good job of actually putting it on the page. That is something that you learn as you go.

I think, too when it comes to the genre hopping. I think I have 12 books out, maybe 11, and I've got two more coming. I have kind of begun to settle because I've written everything from historical, mystery, fantasy, post apocalyptic. I've written a little bit of everything, contemporary thrillers, and I have started to find a little bit of a groove, like you were saying before, about a through line. All of my books, like you read any of my books from the fantasy to the contemporary thriller The Voice is there. The grittiness and the feeling is, is there, that this is a Mindy McGinnis book. But it may not have the same genre or the same style because my style can vary pretty widely.

And some of my books, like A Madness So Discreet and then my fantasy books are written a little more with a literary bent. Whereas my first two books, the post apocalyptic books, they're very sparse just to reflect the landscape and reflect what's going on in the world. But when I have a book that has a little more of a rich setting, the language changes. So I am a little bit all over the place and I do think it has probably hurt me in terms of finding core readers, in terms of my publisher knowing how to market me. I do think that that probably has not done me a lot of favors just in terms of straight up book sales.

Mary: Yeah, and I don't know for me, I don't know how much of a commercial writer I am, so I don't feel like it impacts me quite as much. I'm a mid-lister, I guess I feel like over four books there are readers who have come with me because they like the style, they like the voice. You're saying, like you can tell when you're reading a Mindy McGinnis novel. I think something like that develops when you're writing. Do you ever feel like like you're just trying to see what you can get away with?

Mindy: All the time. I'll write something and I'll be like, oh, that's not going to make it, you know, but we'll see what happens.

Mary: I mean, I remember when The Female of the Species came out and just everyone was like, I can't believe she got away with that. Like, she just... she got to do that? And that was what made me realize - and this is probably why I'm still writing Y.A. - because I feel like you can really be experimental in Y.A. You can do things in a way that they would never let you do in the adult market. And I think it's a very exciting place to be for that reason.

Mindy: Yeah, I do. I think so, too. I think that you can have some fun and play with young adult, because I think the younger readers are going to be more receptive. My most recent book has, it's written in three POV’s and one of them is a panther. And most of my readers have been like, oh, that's really cool. But then it's like I've had adults that are like, what the hell are you doing? I'm having fun.

Mary: Exactly.

Mindy: The Female of the Species is a good example. So I think that was my fourth book and I was not, and I still am not like a very well-known writer. I have a group of people that really love me and will buy every book that I write, but that's like maybe five hundred people. I don't have a huge audience. I definitely think that there is a perception that I sell more than I actually do. If I'm being totally honest, I'm probably actually, as far as numbers go a mi-lister. I just get away with a lot. And I think honestly, that's part of the reason why I get away with it.

I mean, The Female of the Species should be banned. Like there's no reason why that book should not be banned, other than it isn't read as widely as some other books that get banned. This Darkness Mine, when I wrote that, I was like, oh, this is getting banned. No, not not a peep. And I think it's just because they aren't read enough and that's fine. It's like - I'm ready to be banned. I think it'll be great. Every time I write something. I think, well, this one's not going to make it and I keep getting away with it.

But I think that's partially because I do have a reputation that I write the way that I do. And the people that like it already know it. And that's who's going to pick up my books. It's people that already know who I am.

Mary: I think we've both been called gritty. My first couple of books got called Gritty. My second book definitely got called Weird. The word that keeps coming up with Indestructible Object, every review that I have seen of it, the word Messy seems to be the word. I've decided, I don't know, I don't think everyone means that as a compliment. But I've decided to wear it as a point of pride because it's a book about human relationships and human emotions and those are rarely tidy. Or if they are tidy, they're not interesting.

Mindy: No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I get a lot of Bleak and I'm always like - Is that good or is that like… Well, I mean, it was supposed to be. So I guess I did it right.

Ad: Love to read? Check out the Thoughts From A Page Podcast where, with an informal, conversational and engaging manner, host Cindy routinely gets authors to open up about what's important to them, giving busy readers the backstory to their favorite or as yet undiscovered books. Cindy and her guests talk about books spoiler free so you can listen whether you have read the book or not. Then they delve into things that you won't hear about elsewhere. The importance of cover design, why an author included various aspects of the story, personal details about both the books and the authors lives and so much more. You can find the podcast on every major platform and learn more about it on Cindy's website, Thoughts From A Page dot com.

Mindy: Talking about Indestructible Object, the book that I'm drafting right now deals with a girl, a young girl who is creating a podcast. So I think that's really interesting that you're doing the same thing, because I am also toying with writing out the podcast, like the transcript as a chapter.

Mary: Was Courtney Summers the first one to do it with Sadie?

Mindy: Yeah.

Mary: My book is very different from Sadie because there are no villains and no one dies. And the podcasts are about art and love instead of murder. But it's a very satisfying format to write. In my third book, I, Claudia the last section of that book is written entirely in court transcripts. So there was something similar stylistically and I don't know, I hadn't listened to a lot of podcasts prior to writing this book and I do now. It was easy to kind of fall into the rhythms of it.

And there are actually two different podcasts in the book. There's the one that she produces with her boyfriend. It's called Artists in Love, and every week they tell a different artist's love story. Then they break up and he's gone and she's kind of in a tailspin. And she ends up starting her own podcast to sort of investigate the mystery of why her parents, who are in the middle of getting divorced, got together in the first place because they just seem like such a doomed couple. So the podcast kind of ends up being about this mystery and about trying to figure out whether love exists, whether love is ever worth all the goddamn trouble of it.

Mindy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I think that's wonderful. I love the experimental structure as well. I'm playing with it too. In mine. It's like you're saying- it's a team, it's two girls. It's an unlikely duo that ends up having to do a podcast together because they don't have enough history credits to graduate because they had a guidance counselor that just did not do his job. One of them is like the valedictorian and the other one is barely going to graduate. And so they have two very, very different voices. And they end up getting involved in a mystery that nobody even knew existed, a disappearance, someone that disappeared 40 years ago. Nobody even knew she was gone.

Both of them with their different approaches where the valedictorian is just kind of like, oh, my gosh, it's so horrible. And I can't get my mind around the darkness of the situation and where the other girl is like, I am so not surprised. Yeah. A teenage girl disappears. Oh, yeah. That that's never happened before. And just having these really, really very divergent voices. And they each hosted a different episode. So I haven't written one of the episodes by the rougher girl yet, but I wrote the one that's by the valedictorian.

And so it was kind of fun to play with because I was writing it. How would she do this? Like, what is her voice going to be like on her podcast? It’s going to be very serious. But I was like, we're going to really heavy hand this, like it's going to be a little too much and she's going to take herself very seriously. It was a really good way to investigate that character.

Mary: That sounds fantastic. Does it have a title?

Mindy: Right now it's a working title and I hope it does stick most of the time it does. What they're supposed to be doing is just doing a historical podcast about their small town. There was a week in and this is actually true -this happened in my small town. Forty years earlier, there was a tornado that wiped out the town, a flash flood that came in right after that. And then the only murder that has ever occurred in the town happened in that same week. Everybody from the town calls it the long stretch of bad days. So that's the name of the book.

Mary: Oh, wow. I love that.

Mindy: Thanks. And it's not all my hometown, the tornado is my hometown. The flash flood is like the next town over and the murders are completely made up because nobody dies where I live. But, yeah, I'm excited about it. And I'm playing with that format, like you said, that podcast format. So it's fun. I mean, I really enjoy it.

I love the question in Indestructible Object. What is love? I've been divorced twice. I think that's a wonderful topic for a teenager to be interested in. It might help them discover some things earlier rather than later.

Mary: That was something I was really trying to do in the book. I feel like people get a lot of bad information about love and relationships and what constitutes a healthy or a successful relationship. Like often what constitutes success is it lasts until you die. Nobody cheats and nobody fights. And there's so much variation in between. And I think that a relationship can end and can still be a success, you have other options with people then, like we can't be together anymore, therefore you suck. And I have to just sort of burn down all the memories.

There are no villains in Indestructible Object, which is funny because my first three books all have these villains who are so bad like they’re badness is visible from space. And to have in this book be something that's a lot more nuanced that you don't need to have someone who is the bad guy necessarily, because just the way that people bounce off each other, the way that they communicate or fail to communicate, that can create all the conflict and tension and the things that can blow up a relationship.

Although I will say this like the main character, she's an imperfect character. You find out as you go further in, like at the beginning, she's really idealized to this relationship with her boyfriend that's just ended. But the more you learn about their relationship, the more you begin to see that it was not perfect at all, like it never was, that they sort of enjoyed telling each other sort of the story of themselves. They looked really good on paper.

Mindy: I really resent the TV shows and the movies and the books that I read that cast love in a certain light where you were always happy and nothing ever went wrong and he loved you so much. I get very frustrated with the way - it is changing, but I was a librarian for 14 years and I would get so irritated when the main character's love interest, the male was so just genuinely perfect. And he takes care of his little brothers and sisters and he volunteers at the Humane Society and he plays guitar and he cooks dinner for his family and he never even looks at other girls. You are the only girl that exists. And I'm like, bullshit. Yes, he does. He looks at other girls because he's a boy.

It would frustrate me because I would read when I was younger, too. It's like I would read these books about idealized love, where it’s like you are the only one for me and I have found you and we will be together forever. Then dating someone and being like. So you really seem to look at Kathy a lot. And I'm thinking, oh my God, this relationship is never going to work. He is attracted to someone else. And it's like, well, that's just biology.

Mary: I don't know. I feel like some of those grand romantic gestures can often be, They're not always weaponized, but when they are deployed upon you, they're very difficult to resist because you're being fed, like there's a moment where in Indestructible Object, where the main character and her boyfriend, they've broken up and he shows up at her house, like in this grand, like I want you back kind of gesture. She knows even then she should say no to it, but it's just too alluring. And she's getting the thing that she wanted like the thing that fills in that particular narrative, she should say no to it and she can't.

Mindy: That's something I've always felt about public proposals and someone is proposed to in public and people are like, oh, my God, it's so sweet! And I’m like NO! Because she can't say no now.

Mary: But when they do say no, it's so rich.

Mindy: I know there was a Tumblr for a while. I don't know if it's still out there. And it was all like public proposals gone wrong. I love that because it was like, this is reality. We don't always get what we want. And it’s guys, it's girls, it's both. And it's like people really putting themselves out on the line and being told no, being rejected. And it's heartbreaking to watch, but it's also real. That's reality. I would never say I grew up reading romance, but there was definitely like a summer where I think I was probably fifteen or sixteen. And I read a lot of Jude Deveraux and Kathleen Woodiwiss, so I read a lot of romance. And it was all very much like that, swoony, our eyes met and our fates were sealed. And that is just not how it works. And even the best possible relationship in the world, if you're not fighting, something's actually wrong because somebody isn't saying something.

Mary: What I was reading when I was in high school, I never went through a romance reading phase, but I was reading like. Pete Hamill and John Irving and John Cheever and all the Johns - mid century American masculinity romance novels. And that narrative is like, oh, I'm middle aged and emotionally battered and this person is going to save me. It’s just as much a fantasy.

Mindy: I have a lot of thoughts about the way relationships are portrayed and when you see a messy one, I really enjoy that. I know Friends is coming back and the kids are watching Friends. But I watched it through high school and then in college and then I stopped watching it after college. But I remember when Ross and Rachel broke up like my entire dorm was watching it. It was one of the best fight scenes that I've ever seen. It was very realistic, like they were yelling and then they were crying and then they were sorry. And then they were like, we really love each other, but this just isn't working and we don't know why. And they're both sad. It was just like a real relationship.

Mary: Well, I did not expect Ross and Rachel's relationship to show up in this conversation.

Mindy: I don't know. I've been because the friends, everybody's watching Friends again and people are wearing t-shirts and everything. I was really invested in it as a teenager. As an adult, If it's on, I'll watch it and it just doesn't do anything for me. But I remember being probably 18 or 19 when that episode aired and being like, oh, yeah, this is actually realistic. This is nice.

Mary: And, you know, there are people who were never quite into Ross and Rachel again. Once they broke up the first time and then got together, it was kind of like, well, they're not perfect anymore. So I'm done.

Mindy: Which is just not real at all.

Mary: Well, I mean, happy endings are all about where you stop telling the story. The first time that I ever thought, that I ever really saw that, it hit home for me was when I saw the movie The Graduate. And the movie ends with the big romantic gesture. He actually pulls it off. It goes well. And then the scene of them just driving away on the bus with these horrible expressions on their faces of like, oh, - we done fucked up and now we have to live with the consequences of our own actions.

And I remember really resisting that at first, the movie ending. And I was mad like that was my initial response of like, no, you can't you can't do that. That's not right. That's not how you tell a story. And then I realized, wait, no, that is exactly how you tell a story.

Mindy: I read very recently. I actually read The Hunchback of Notre Dame because I've never read it before.

Mary: I haven't read that.

Mindy: Oh, God. OK, so I talked about it on the podcast before. I don't know who at Disney read that and was like, this is a children's movie. Oh my God. The priest like flat out attempts to rape Esmeralda. Esmeralda is 14 and her knight in shining armor, whose name I forget. He literally can't even pronounce her name like she decides she loves him because she likes his military helmet, literally.

Mary: Oh, no.

Mindy: Oh, yes. She likes the way he looks. And then she's like, I love you. Let's get married. And then she even drops it where she's like, You don't even have to marry me. I will just be your mistress. That's fine. Let's make this happen. And he's like, You're so cute. My little pet, he’s patting her head and he won't, he can't even pronounce her name. And everyone ends up dying. Literally, the entire cast dies except for her lover, whose name I can't remember. But the very last line of the Hunchback of Notre Dame, it made me so happy because it said, as I forget his name, we'll just say it's Greg. It says, As for Greg, he suffered the worst fate of all. He was married,

Mary: I guess, at Disney. They were like, well, if we got away with The Little Mermaid and making that palatable to an audience of children, surely we are invincible now. We can adapt this.

Mindy: It was really good. I enjoyed the book. It was fun to read. It was very well written. Everyone dies, Esmeralda is hanged. Quasimodo crawls into her grave and just chooses to lay there until he dies. And as for him, he was married and it was the worst fate of all. The worst of all. Thanks for that happily ever after.

Last thing, why don't you let readers know, first of all, when the release date is for Indestructible Object, where readers can find the book and where they can find you online.

Mary: It came out June 15th. It is available anywhere books are sold. And my website is Mary-McCoy.com. I just got two pieces of good news yesterday. I found out, first of all, that Indestructible Object, there's going to be a paperback edition. And I also found out that it was nominated for YALSA’s Best Books for Young Adults list they produce every year. And it's funny, that just felt like such an achievement unlocked. Like four books, and I've never gotten that honor before. It felt really special.

Mindy: Absolutely. And I don't think that people realize you don't automatically get a paperback. You have to sell well enough in hardcover in order to get a paperback release.

Mary: Yeah, this is the first time that's happened. I did just find out also my second book, Camp So and So, which this is wild - that book came out in 2017 and it's paperback edition is coming out next May. That's nice to know that you've written something that's kind of had that much of a long tail on it.

Mindy: Any positive things, no matter when they come in this industry you embrace.

Traditional or Indie? Why choose? Author Katee Robert Finds Success with a Foot in Both Worlds.

June 15, 2020 Mindy McGinnis

Mindy: This summer I'm adding a co-host, fellow author Kate Karyus Quinn. We'll be doing a series that focuses on hybrid and indie authors. If you're thinking of going the Self Pub route we've got authors who found success with six figure sales, as well as authors who are just starting out on the road to indie publishing. Learn from them. Learn with us.

Kate: I’m Kate Karyus Quinn and I am back on the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire podcast pushing Mindy to chat more. Really. I want to, like, make her open up more and just get into all your sore spots. And so I thinks it's time to talk about your dead dogs.

Mindy: I think we're over sharing. And, um that's fine. Okay. So yeah, last week we talked about menstruating dogs and this Week, which we do have a guest for you at some point. But this week, we kind of teased last week that Mindy used to use have two dogs, and now she was zero. This is true. It's a sad story. So, I had an Australian shepherd, and this Australian shepherd, I think she was almost 20. Her name was Dana. Her name was actually Dana Scully, if I'm being honest. So Dana Scully and I had been together forever. So, like this cat... Sorry. It's a dog.

Kate: Well, okay. You know, you have a lot of cats when you're calling your dog a cat.

Mindy: I had a cat that lived for 20 years to though, It was like 22.

Kate: Isn’t it more common for cats to live that long?

Mindy: It’s much more common for cats. Yeah, but I had a cat that saw me through, like, pretty much the same time, period. But then the dog just, like, kept going, but yeah, I had a cat that I think I got her when I was seven. And I had her until I was 29. Yeah, so that sucked. Her name was Mercedes, anyway. Oh, because I had just watched, like, License to Drive. And, you know, Heather Graham is in it. And she's Mercedes Lane. Yeah, so I named my cat Mercedes.

So then I had this This dog, I got this dog and her name was Dana Scully. And she was an awesome dog, and she saw me through, like, a marriage and a divorce, and then a new relationship that lasted, like, pretty much 12 years and then a break up. Actually, that dog was with me through my last year of college, too. Moves too, household moves, uh, you know, books, writing many, many books so that dog was with me forever. And she was at the point where it was like there were multiple times that I thought she had died. So, like I go outside and she’d be sleeping in the sun and like at one point, I was like, positive the dog was dead, like I tried to wake her up. I physically shook her and she was not reacting like she was, she was dead.

So I texted my boyfriend at the time because we were living together. I was leaving for work and I texted him, I was like, Hey, Dana’s dead. She's in the side yard. If you would please bury her before I get home, I would really appreciate it. I can't do it. I gotta go to work, right? She wasn't dead. She was just, like, so deeply asleep that she just wasn't coming up out of it. But the dog wasn’t dead.

Kate: That’s crazy.

Mindy: Yeah, so it's like he went outside to bury the dog and she just came running around the corner to greet him. And he was very confused. So she had kind of, like, pulled a fast one on me a couple of times that I thought she was dead. And I had had this, like, experienced grief, right? Like, oh my god my dog died. So one morning, I go outside and I had two dogs at the time. I had Dana and I had Brutus, and I'm like Dana, you know, and I'm getting everybody around. No Dana, like she just doesn't show up. And she basically was so old that she would go outside, find her spot where the sun shone and just laid down. She wasn't there. I'm like, Oh, shit, she wandered off to die because dogs do that.

I go inside and I'm getting like, because I live in the middle of nowhere, totally rural. And I got on like, my boots to go through this field and just, like, see if I can find her somewhere and all of sudden I'm like, oh, shit, cause I have a pond. I was just like, Oh, my God. I hope she didn't, like, try to walk down to the pond because there's really steep banks and I go out there and she's floating in a pond and I was just like, Oh my God, my dog drowned.

And so I had to go get her like I did, you know, take my boots off and everything and swim out and get her and pull her back in. And, ah, so then I called my boyfriend, and I was like, I always like, hey man, Dana’s dead. He was not home at this time. And I was like, Dana is dead, and I need you to, and I need you to bury her. And he's like, Well, she's she's actually dead this time? I was, I was lost, like I could hardly speak. And I'm like, No, she drowned. I just swam out, and I had to get her and haul her body back in and all this. He was then, like, he felt horrible. Ah, that he questioned me on whether or not the dog was dead, and he even asked me, he was like, Did you try to perform CPR? Dude, Uh, stop questioning me. My dog is dead, but, um, yeah. So, I lost Dana.

Kate: That really sounds like a like lost scene from Not A Drop to Drink. Like that would fit perfectly in that book.

Mindy: Yeah, It would totally fit in there.

Kate: Yes, if the mother probably wouldn't have let her have a dog, but no,

Mindy: Exactly. Well, but if it was a good guard dog, then that's acceptable. You had to earn your keep

Kate: That's true. That's true.

Mindy: That's how I feel generally. But when you've earned your keep for, like, 17 years and you're starting to slow down, I'll let that slide. But yeah, so my other dog, Brutus. Good boy. Great boy. Pound Doggy had had him for, like, 10 years like he was older. So he's a big dog. He was bigger. He is my German shepherd.

Kate: He was the secret basement pooper, right?

Mindy: He was a secret basement pooper, but I don't know how much secret it was because he would tell on himself like he would go shit in the basement and then he would come upstairs and he would just look at me and he had a specific look on his face that said, Hey, I just shit in the basement. I would see that look and I would just go Brutus! and he would be like, I know, I know. I’m sorry! The cat litter is down there and I think he just like, he literally was trying to use the litter pan. He just couldn't like, there was too much math.

Kate: Do you think he got confused and thought he was maybe a cap or part cat?

Mindy: I think he just doesn't understand, like parabolas. Because he was trying to use the litter pan. He just I don't know. There's more positioning when you're a dog.

Kate: Oh, yeah, Yeah.

Mindy: I don't know any way. He ended up getting a brain tumor And so I had to, had actually take him and put him down like about six weeks ago, right when the quarantine started. We're recording this April 22nd and so we're all in quarantine. So I had to put my dog down. My last dog had to put my dog down right before quarantine. And I had just gone through a break up of a guy that I was with for 12 years. So quarantine has just been stinking awesome for me. I'm racking it up. I’m losing men and my dogs are dying and there’s a pandemic. It's just, it's like a country song.

Kate: You know, you texted or we were on slack with Demetria, I think. And you said it was like the first week of quarantine and you were like so I just had a to take my dog to be put down. It's not going so well. And we’re, just like oh, no!

Mindy: See, you don't want me to chit chat. You don't want me to do this because it's like these are my stories. No one is glad that you talked me into this right now. Okay? 0% of people are happy.

Kate: I think they are. Everyone can relate to this cause everyone has had to do this. I had to take my cocker spaniel, our first, my husband's, and I our first little dog. And she was like, always like, sickly and the scared little dog. And it was so hard to do. It's the hardest thing about, like having to take a dog and put them down is like you you just don't know like you feel so bad. Like, is it time? Is it not time like, like they could keep going? Are they suffering? But you can't tell and it's also like it's hard to take care of the dog at the end of their life, like with our dog, like she was, like, shitting herself all the time. And so it was like, You feel guilty, like, do I just want to, like, stop dealing with this? And like, that wasn't it. But you, like, have those thoughts.

Mindy: No, totally. And see, with Dana because she was so fricking old it was like, I didn’t want her to be scared. I just didn't want her to be scared. And she was so old that my vet was like, You know, she's due for her booster, but quite frankly, it's a really expensive booster, and it might not be worth it. And she gets so upset when she goes to the vet, even like maybe we should just, like, give her give her some time and see how she's doing. And like my vet was basically like, don't worry about vaccinating this dog because it's a waste of money. And so I was just like I just didn't want her to be scared. I didn't want that to be her last thing is that Mom puts her in a car and she's terrified and then, you know, and so I didn't want her to be scared. And then, yeah, she ended up drowning. And so I was just, like, so pissed. So pissed at fate.

Kate: So no, I know. I remember you were so upset at that. That's just so horrible to like. Have to go and pull your dog out of the pond is horrible. That’s horrible. It’s horrible.

Mindy: It sucked. It really did. And it was just Yeah, And then shortly after that, just, you know, break up and quarantine and yeah, everyone should buy my books. There we go.

Kate: It was a hell of a year. I feel like you're one of those people who, like shit, happens to them more than others, but maybe not. I can never tell if it's just like some people are better at telling stories and just or if... Like, do you feel like crap happens to you? Like the first thing I remember about meeting you the first time was you said I can only see out of one eye.

Mindy: No. I could only hear out of one here because my ear drum had ruptured, right?

Kate: No, you were in the middle of your eye Surgery.

Mindy: Oh, shit. That's right. No, that is something that is just, like, frickin bizarre.

Kate: So you were looking out of one eye, Kind of like Winky. Like you would like have to close one eye to like focus.

Mindy: Oh, no, that's true. That that did happen to me. So I would assume this has never happened to anyone. Um, with my first Ah, my first advance for a book. I decided I was going to give myself the gift of sight because I had been wearing contacts and glasses since I was in, like, fifth grade. And I was so tired of not being able to see and having to find my glasses or put in my contacts first thing in the morning cause I was, like, legally blind, like it was bad.

And, um so I was like, I want LASIK. So I go to get LASIK. Actually, my vision was so bad that at one point when I had first gotten married the first time, um, we had a puppy – it was when Dana was a puppy. So here's a puppy story. Dana ate my glasses. You know, I couldn't wear contacts that point in life because I was in college and I had, like, really abused my eyes and slept with my contacts in, and they wouldn't let me have anymore. Like Red Flag, my little file. And it was like she's not responsible enough to wear contacts.

Kate: That's horrible.

Mindy: It was terrible. So I had, you know, glasses and my dog ate my glasses and I was literally stuck at home. I couldn't leave because I can't see.

Kate: Did she eat them or did she just chew him up really bad?

Mindy: She consumed parts of them, and so it wasn't something I could reconstruct. So, like, that's how bad my vision is that I was stuck at home and I had to, like, call my dad and my dad had to come get me, and I had to be driven somewhere to buy glasses so that I could see.

Kate: Without glasses mine is pretty bad too. I wouldn't drive somewhere if I didn't have my lenses or my glasses on.

Mindy: No, like it would be so unsafe would be ridiculous, you know? Anyway, I decided to give myself the gift of LASIK. Turns out my corneas or too thin, because when they do LASIK, they just cut a slit and they flip up your cornea. And then they lase the pupil and the rods and cones, and then they flip your cornea back down and it heals. My corneas were so thin, they were like, We can't do that. It won't heal again. We actually have to scrape your corneas all the way off. It's called surface abrasion.

Kate: Is this a Common thing?

Mindy: It's It's basically the backup for LASIK. Like if you don't qualify for LASIK, you can get this done. And I was like, OK, I'll do it right. And so it's like the same machine that they use for LASIK, but they actually just, like, scrape your corneas off. And that was just, like fucking weird.

Kate: With the laser?

Mindy: No, no, They scrape it off, like with a spatula. Yeah, I'm not even kidding you. Like they literally like you're you're laying there. They give you Valium, right? But you have to be—

Kate: Like a spatula? Do you mean scapula? Like used to flip pancakes. I feel lke the place you to was really janky.

Mindy: No, I went to like a really expensive one, Which is what makes this so fucked up because it wasn't like a spatula, like they bought it like dollar general or something. But, like, that's what it looked like. It just looked like a little flat piece of plastic, right? And I granted, I couldn't like focus on it because it was literally going into my eye, but yes.

So they took my corneas off both of them, and then they start lazing, you know, using the machine so they do one eye and then they go to the other one, the machine, just like stops like, just stops working like how your light bulb just goes out sometime. Except it's a $3 million machine. It just stopped working. And they were like Oh shit. And everyone around me is just like, oh my god. Oh no.

And it's like not a good feeling When your corneas are off, you have Valium running through your veins and you're on your back with like a clockwork orange thing on your face holding our eyes open. And everyone around you is going, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. I’m so Valium’d that I didn’t care. And I’m like, what’s going on? And they're like, Ah, basically, we we fucked you. Uh, they were like they were like we are so sorry. You know, and basically had to wait for my corneas had to grow back, which takes, like, three days. And then they had to wait for, like, six months to make sure because they had done, like, a small treatment on that one eye. So they had to wait for everything to recalibrate, get the new prescription, go back and get my cornea scraped off again, and then treat that other eye. But so, yeah, I was basically, like, blind in one eye. When I went on tour for that first time. And then I got vertigo on that trip to because from flying, I got vertigo. I thought you were talking about when my ear drum broke.

Kate: Well, yeah because that happens so much. But I feel like that's I mean, that's also a weird thing that happens to you, but that happens to so often. But the Yeah, the the laser eye surgery. So did the laser eye surgery. Did it hurt? My friend said it felt like having a rubber band snapped against your eye.

Mindy: You know, when they did the laser part, I don't remember because I was still very much just like dude they just scraped my corneas off like I was so focused on the feeling of having your cornea scraped off. Because the other thing is like, there's basically pressure on your eyeball. You remember, like in the seventies when you would go to the movies or the early eighties and before they had previews, There was just like like, oil and water. Kind of like moving across the screen. Did you have that experience as a child?

Kate: No, If I did, I don't remember it.

Mindy: well, it was like a lava lamp. So that's what it looks like when they scrape your corneas off like that. That was my perception, cause your eyes are open and you're looking forward. It's like a thing moving across, and it just everything goes wonky And you just see like lava lamp shit. It's bizarre.

Kate: but you can feel the pressure? I mean, I’ve had three C sections, and obviously you have those while you're awake. So that's probably somewhat a similar sensation like you can feel someone like tugging on your insides, but it doesn't hurt. It's very, very uncomfortable.

Mindy: A c- Section on my eyeball is probably a really good way of putting it.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But No baby came out.

Mindy: No, I did not have a baby out my eyeball. No. That didn’t happen.

Kate: But what's more painful or uncomfortable having the eye surgery or having your needle face treatment? Because I really do want to get—

Mindy: the needling.

Kate: Really?

Mindy: The needling hurts dude. Um, the eye treatment... I would say the needles are more painful.

Kate: And just so people know, Mindy and I are, um we both turned 40 last year. A week like, three days apart, four days apart. I'm the 19th you’re, the

Mindy: The 18th

Kate: We’re one day a day apart. So we're very into skin care, and I sort of got you into it. The student has surpassed the master because you just, like, leapfrogged ahead of me and, like, started doing all these treatments. And now I just, like, ask you about them and like I'm jealous.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah. You were like you could buy this cream, and I'm like, or I can get my face punctured over and over with a needle. That's what I'm gonna do. I did. I got the, I did the BBL first, which, if you if you Google BBL, it's gonna tell you Brazilian butt lift. I did not. I did not get a Brazilian Butt Lift.

Kate: It’s on the to do list.

Mindy: Yeah, you'll know if you see my butt, it will be very clear. No Brazilian butt lift has been done. But it's like broadband light therapy and that I really liked liked. That was cool because it just, like, basically burns off your age spots. Yeah, and they don't come back.

Kate: That's like it's not something that has to be redone or—

Mindy: Its maintenance, its maintenance. So, like, I'm going to get it done like, once a year now. But, um, I really liked it. And then the thing I'm doing right now, which I'm in the midst of because I bought, like, a package. So I have four treatments. Is the micro needling. Um, they basically just puncture your face over and over and over. It damages your face, but it makes your skin produce collagen in order to heal. And it just, like, tightens up your skin. And it does work like I would never, I would never say that it's not worth it, but it's expensive, and it fucking hurts. And so, like, when you're right in the middle of it, you're laying there thinking I am paying you a lot of money to basically actually torture me.

Kate: But you have to, they give you something, right? You can get an anesthetic?

Mindy: They give you. Ah, laughing gas. Um, I didn't take it for the first pass because I was like, I'm tough. And so I did it without for, like, the first pass. And I think they do three passes. And and so she started the second. And since my face had already been punctured repeatedly with, like, basically a Brillo pad of nails, I was like, it already hurt. So they started to a second time, and I'm like, I'm out. I'm out. Bring me the laughing gas. And then once you have the laughing gas, it just...

Kate: It just didn't hurt. It just felt like-

Mindy: No, it still hurts. You just don't give a shit. Laughing Gas is awesome, dude. I mean, I had it. Have you ever had any pain killers? Never?

Kate: Um, like after my c section, I've had they gave me, like painkillers, but I only took them for, like, a couple days. And then I stopped and just, like, was with ibuprofen. But, like, I've never had, um, I've never had a cavity or anything, so I've never, like, needed it for dental work.

Mindy: Yeah. See, I've gone under and been in medical situations so many times. Um, I got Valium in the vein one time. That was interesting. I had to swallow a camera. You’re right, I do have a weird life. Um, I had to swallow a camera because there was a problem with my heart. So basically, they showed me this camera, and it was like, the size of my fist, and they're like, you're gonna swallow this, is gonna go down your throat and, you know, we're gonna look at your heart. And I was and I looked at this thing, and it was it was the size of my fist. I'm like, I'm not swallowing that guys. And they were like, You won't care, once we start theValium, and it was like in an IV drip ofValium and I and I literally just went Ahhhhhh.

It's like my experience with any type of situation like that is like you're still aware and you still feel everything. Like, I could feel the camera moving around inside my sternum. Like I could feel it touching my my breastbone, like moving and Yeah, but you just don't care. You just don't care. Like you have better things to think about. And I don't know what they were. Um, I couldn't tell you what I was thinking about, but yeah, when you're when you're in an altered state, you're still I mean, in my experiences, you're still aware, and you feel the pain. It just isn't relevant, if that makes sense.

Kate: Um, is it almost like you're floating above yourself like watching?

Mindy: No, I've never had an out of body experience. Um, it's mostly just like it literally just explodes your euphoria. And you're happy. It doesn't matter that someone just shoved a camera down your throat or, you know, scraped off your cornea or broke your eardrum. Yeah.

Kate: You have had an interesting life, and this isn't even talking about the time you texted me and Demitria and said, I put my hand through a glass door today.

Mindy: I did that was a cool one. I have an amazing scar from that one. And actually it was so cool, though, because I could see there's a split second when you are very badly injured. There is a split second where you don't start bleeding yet. If you've been cut by something that's super sharp, for one thing, it doesn't hurt because it severs the nerves immediately and you actually aren't in any pain. But you also don't—

Kate: Like when you're shaving your legs and you think you cut yourself and you're like, Oh, shit, did I cut myself? It's not bleeding, I guess. And then it starts to bleed. That's like I cut myself.

Mindy: And you put your leg back in the water and it burns. Yeah, so I I did indeed put my arm right through like a plate glass screen door from the 1970s.

Kate: In a moment of physics gone crazy, right?

Mindy: Yeah, Like I just like straight armed of this door and it came back and I wasn't being aggressive. I just like my flat palm just hit that door at exactly the right angle or whatever, but it just shattered, and then my arm went through the hole and Then I I watched this huge piece of plate glass just literally swing and think to myself that's gonna fall straight up, guillotine style on my arm. And I have all of these thoughts but not quickly enough to pull back. Like you know, your mind works so fast and it falls and slices me open. And I looked down at my arm and I had this beautiful moment of clarity before it bled where I could see inside my arm and I could say everything. It was awesome. It was so cool. I could see the muscles and I could see the tendons I like as soon as it opened. Like the fat just like rolled back. And then drip, drip, drip, drip Just blood all over the place like it was crazy. Um, yeah, that was a good one. We should We should always start talking about my bodily injuries.

Kate: I am so squeamish. My daughter has had her molars and back teeth have started coming out her baby teeth and she is like so, like, a soon as the tooth gets loose, she like she just keeps working at like she just can't stand to have the loose tooth. And she keeps working it and she wants to, like Mommy, like Mom. I have this tooth and it's like go tell your dad I don't want to hear about it. It grosses me out so much, I don't know. I'm super squeamish. I'm just so squeamish. Like if I looked and saw the inside of my arm, I would have face planted on the glass and probably slit my throat because I would have probably passed out. It's so, I have no ability to deal with that stuff.

Mindy: I was incredibly intrigued. I even had a moment where, you know, I was like, flicking my fingers and watching the muscles like flick right before it started bleeding. I actually had that opportunity, and I was like, This is cool. Um, at this time beginning to bleed out at an enormous rate, and ah, then I ended up like I was dating someone at the time that drove me to the ER, and I had, in the meantime, just bled all over everything. Like it was it was bad. Um, and I texted my mom and I was like, Hey, just so you know, I'm fine. I am perfectly okay. I'm being driven to the ER right now. Could you please go over to the house? Because there was glass all over the place and I still had Brutus and Dana. At that point. I was like, Can you go to the house and clean up the blood? Because I don't want the dogs, you know, to step on it and get hurt.

And so my mom's like, Okay, you know, like I grew up in a farming family. People getting stitches is just not news, right? So I played it down. Anyway, Mom goes over to the house, so we live really near each other so, like, five minutes later, I get this phone call. She's like Mindy, You are not okay! You should see the blood!

And she showed me like she took a picture because I had stood over the sink for, like, half a second, just rinsing it just to see how bad it was. And there was like, a coffee cup had been sitting in the sink to get washed, and it was literally, like, full of my blood. And my mom was like, dude, you are not okay. She's like, I can track your progress through the house. It is not hard. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm okay. And I was I'm fine. I have a great scar.

Kate: I am not surprised that that would fascinate you. My other earliest memory of meeting you in person was you being very excited to tell me in great detail all the awesome research you've been doing about lobotomies. It's like you like that and sheet wrapping because you were writing, A Madness So Discreet. And so you were just like, Oh, my God, I I'm just I'm loving this information about the lobotomies. It's fascinating. Do you know what they used to do? And I was like, You were just, like, so excited about it. And like, you just wanted to tell everybody. Like you were like, spreading The good word of lobotomies to everybody.

Mindy: I’m not an easy person to love. I wonder why I'm single. Okay. Um so who's who's our guest today? Katee?

Kate: Katee Robert.

Mindy: Katee Robert is coming on today to talk to us about writing sexy, sexy stuff? Yes.

Kate: And she is so great I stalk her on Twitter, so I'm gonna have to let her know that. And, um, you should stalk her on Twitter too and instagram and all the places because she's she's really so fascinating. And she's such a cool person and talks about a lot of really interesting stuff. Her writing and knitting and life.

Mindy: All right, let's get Katee on.

Kate: I follow Katee on Twitter and you're very active on Twitter, and you're very funny on Twitter and super interesting. Is that your favorite form of social media? I feel like people who are on social media let you feel like you know their whole lives, but it's all you're holding stuff back. You know, you're showing people what you want to show them, so I don't know. Do you want to talk about Twitter?

Katee: Instagram is my favorite. Just because it's consistently mostly happy you can, you know, go look at pretty pictures like of books or pets or food or whatever, and so that's kind of my refuge when, like the rest of social media gets too intense, I really enjoy Twitter for the most part, in just like the little rapid fire conversations that happen and feels very organic in a lot of ways that you interactive with people that you wouldn't necessarily interact with otherwise. But it can get brutal sometimes. And it can. I can sometimes get a little oversensitive. So I have to, like, take Twitter timeouts.

Kate: You’ve had people like, come after you for, like, things you've said, haven't you?

Katee: I have a series that is fairytale retellings and people have strong opinions about it. And whether it's... I don't know, they just have very strong. It creates very strong feelings. And, um and occasionally I get some, like, pushback about that on Twitter and specifically Twitter and occasionally just other stuff like. It's just people, especially right now, are very their best Selves and their worst Selves. And so you get a little bit of both, especially on Twitter. Um, because it's so easy to fire off a tweet and, like, you know, really into something emotionally, and I've done it too, So I'm not definitely not throwing stones. Usually I have Freedom, the Freedom app on my like computer. And so I lock myself out of Twitter at 5 p.m. Every night just for my mental health, so I don't just scroll endlessly. But, you know, I really enjoy Twitter. Facebook's fine. I just have corners of Facebook that I spend time in. That's like my safe spaces. So I don't spend a lot of time on, like my actual timeline. And then I really enjoy Instagram just across the board.

Kate: For the most part, you can just look at pictures. You don't necessarily have to see the comments, whereas Twitter, I honestly as an author and I'm not a big author, and I don't have a ton of followers, but I do have a fear of, like, someday accidentally saying something and getting like at the bottom of one of those, like Twitter dog piles where like every single person like piles on and is like, Yeah, you are stupid, like, How could you do that? You know, like it happens all the time and I see it happen to other people, and I'm just Oh my god, I would go and live in a cave.

Mindy: I struggle because I see people that I know and that I like and that I absolutely, know are good people. Twitter is not an honest or best representation of ourselves. I used to be on Twitter like quite a bit, and I have, ah, decent following there. And I think it does work as far as like marketing and promotion. Maybe it does, I think, or at least it does in the YA sector. But I tell you, I went through a break up like about six months ago, and I just pulled back from everything. Super hard. I was just done. I crawled in a hole and died for a little bit. And when I came back out, I was just like, dude, this is stupid. I don't enjoy this. I'm not having fun. I don't end up getting anything out of this experience. The only thing I get out of it is knowing who's in trouble today.

Katee: Yes, I've taken like months and months off Twitter. Just for that reason exactly, is cause it. Sometimes it seems like like Facebook is what it is. Instagram's all happy and Twitter's just screaming all the time and and there are good corners of it and there are really good interactions. But yeah, it's it can be really fraught like for sure, and it's daunting at times that just anybody can just, like, come out of the woodwork and, like, show up in your mentions and just be Awful. And you almost can't engage with that because then it can create one of those dog piles like authors behaving badly and now you're the asshole and you know everybody has gonna have an opinion about it. I feel like everybody's social media is curated to some extent, and I try to just be a positive representation of, like, you know, not without struggle and not without, like, I have stuff that I struggle with. I try to be honest about that because it's not fair to be like everything's awesome all the time. But I also don't want to dwell in that too much just because I am a purveyor of escapist stories, and that's what I want out of my content. And so that's what I will try to put out in the world.

Mindy: You know, I like I still live in like a super super super small town, like we graduated, I think, 68 kids last year and so early on, like in high school, I told one of my friends who would get upset, like people would be talking about her, or whatever. I was like, Dude, this is where we live. If there's something that you're considering doing and you wouldn't want your mom to know, don't do it. Because everybody is going to find out. And so that is kind of my rule on Twitter too. If you wouldn't say it to your mom, about your mom or in front of your mom. Don't say it. And that has helped me out a lot. Like when I'm ready to fire something back is like, Would my mom be upset with me for this? Yes. So you know, just that, like you're saying the pile on and the attacks, it's It's exhausting. I've seen enough of them to be like, Oh, I'm out.

Katee: Because of some of the negative experiences I’ve had on Twitter has really changed my feelings on, like Is this worth like being angry at this author? I don't know over like that they did this thing or said this thing or published this thing? Like most the time. Now it's like I'm just gonna go back to like my corner of the world, and I cannot comment on this because it has nothing to do with me and not my circus, not my monkeys. I mean, sometimes occasionally do get pulled in because that mob mentality is very intoxicating even when you're trying to be good. But I try really hard to just stay positive.

Kate: You do seem like you really do use it, though, to connect with your readers. And you post about your books a lot and also you do post excerpts. You had an excerpt the other day that I scrolled across, that was like for Daddy romance. And I was like, That is totally something that I think is icky. But then I was reading your excerpt,. I was like, Oh my God, I may have to read this. It was really strangely hot, and I was disturbed and was like, I gotta talk to my counselor about this.

Katee: It's funny, cause that book is solely exists because of Twitter, because I shot off a tweet like I had read, um, Nikki Sloane had put out a book that has this complicated relationship with his father in law. After reading that series I was like, Do I like Father in law stuff? like I don't think I do. I feel like I really don't. But apparently this particular scenario is okay, um and so I fired off this tweet just like mostly joking. But the response of it kind of prompted me to be like, Well, maybe I'll just sit down and see if I can write like some of it, because it's not my normal kink or whatever. And then I wrote the book in a week. So uh so it's definitely that experience was solely because of, like, Twitter and social media is that I even wrote that book to begin with, and so, you know, some good positive stuff does come out of it. It's definitely not for everybody. 100% not for everybody, But it was, it brought me a lot of joy in the middle of like, this crazy pandemic. So I hope it brings some people joy who read it too.

Mindy: So, in terms of like marketing and promotion and just like discoverer ability, are you using Twitter to connect and to interact? Or do you think that's useful? As a marketing tool.

Katee: I feel like Twitter is useful in more word, of mouth. I sell more books for other people like that. I enjoy that. I'm talking about them on Twitter than, like my own books. I don't think like the actual promotional tweets that maybe were really popular, like five or six years ago. I don't think that they work. I think people just scroll past, um, so if you're engaging in, like a really organic way, that could help. But it's hard to know, like I have no way to track that one way or another, So I can't say definitively.

Kate: I would say, like I've seen your recommendations to And they always feel, um, it doesn't feel like Oh, my friend, you know, asked me if I would tweet her book like It always feels like I read this book. I really enjoyed it. It feels honest. It doesn't just feel like I'm doing somebody a favor, and I think that's I think that's what everyone's looking for, You know, you do want to hear like, Oh, I loved, someone loved this book and, you know, this is why you should read it.

Katee: I feel like, because I do a round up at the end of every month of like the books that I read and finish, and I only put books in there that I enjoyed, like, I don't talk about the books that I didn't like because it's life's too short and they're my peers and I don't want that karma. I try really hard to make sure that I have read and finished and enjoyed any book that I'm recommending just because there is, like, a level of trust there that I don't want to like, violate.

Kate: That’s what readers are really looking for. And it's obvious that you're also a reader as well as a writer. And so I think other readers respond to that.

Mindy: I have been in a massive reading slump just because I don't know if it's the environment if it's being stuck at home or what, but I haven't read anything I like in a while. It is killing me because that makes me less creative, like it's hard for me to write. If I'm not getting in any enjoyment out of reading.

Katee: I actually through most of March up until, like the last week I read I didn't finish like six or seven books and it was not the book's fault. It was just like I could not settle down and just read. And then I read that Nikki Sloane series the Filthy Rich Americans and just it blew me away. And, like I read like, three out of four, the books, like in Individual one Sittings, which I never do and kind of broke my slump a little bit. But her stuff is great and amazing and like she's a master. But it's not necessarily what I normally read cause I write in a similar like types of stories. And so I don't like to read what I'm writing, but that those books, just like, completely blew me away and like, re energizes to be like, I'm ready to read again, but it took a month to get there.

Kate: I love books that are that you love as a reader, but that also inspire your own writing. For me, a couple years ago, um, The Hating Game that book, just like I loved it so much, I do not re read a lot, or if I re read, I wait like several years because I have a terrible memory. And so I forget most details pretty quickly. But this book. I reread like four months after I read it the first time because I just needed that, like, shot of, like, happiness in my brain. And, um, I was like, I want more books like this and I ended up writing, um, a romantic comedy because I was, like, so inspired as a reader and a writer by that book.

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Mindy: So I want to talk about what you think does work for marketing, and we're talking about the Indie market here for my listeners. We've been talking to a couple of different in the authors, and everyone is saying that social media doesn't necessarily work, which, honestly, is a relief to hear. Weirdly, I have an incredible amount of interaction on my Facebook page like I don't want to go back to talking about social media, but for some reason my author Facebook page has like super traffic. So I just keep putting pictures of my cats up, and that seems to be what works. But when it comes to actually like marketing, an author that we had on earlier said that she doesn't even put any money most of the time into paid ads, she said, she just relies on her mailing list. So where do you land on that?

Katee: Um, I only have one paid ad that runs like consistently, Um, I have a free novella for a menage series that I wrote back in 2018 that it's just Perma free, and it's like a $10 day ad, and it just performs consistently enough that I get a nice trickle in that I earn my money back and then some. I haven't found a way to replicate that. Probably cause I don't really have any other free books currently. And I'm not, I don't know how it works. I mean, I wish I could say I did. I have because I started traditional and back in 2012 when there was, like, certain things that you knew you could like plug in the algorithm and like, get a result. And now it's a lot more depends on the author. Depends on the genre. Depends on a number of factors completely outside our control. And so most of my success in Indy has been just through word of mouth, which I do not know how to replicate.

Mostly. What I do is I have ah, pretty active Facebook group. I overshare. I share teasers. I talk a lot about my process. I'm just like, out there in the world with that. And now I do that as well on my Patreon under the free like for people who just pop over there and that, like the teasers and just talking about it and I guess, an organic way I got on the how else to describe it has drummed up a lot of response there. It's not something that I can like, I'm trying to ensure that, like the books that I write are within that same umbrella of the books that are doing well now. So then there's like some natural crossover but actual marketing like I just sort of am winging it constantly. Like I just talked about it a lot and just, like, make my own teasers cause I enjoy that. And and the teaser seemed to like get some response. But like I have a mailing list. But it's not particularly like it's like 30 or 35. No. Words are cool. 3500.

Mindy: Math is hard, words are cool.

Katee: Um, so it's not particularly like an insane number of subscribers, but my open rates Pretty decent. Um, so I, but I've been trying hard for the last year to build up like the direct to reader, like to build up my newsletter and offer exclusive content to them and through my Patreon in my reader group in Facebook to just give them content that they actually are, like can get excited about that isn't necessarily just, like a lot of the stuff of, like trying to create reader engagement has never worked for me. I know it works for certain authors, but it it's just for whatever reason. My readers don't respond well to that, so they like the excerpts like the really dirty ones.

Mindy: So with your loss leader, the free novella does that, then lead into a series. And that's how you hook your readers?

Katee: That novella, it's a novella and then two full length novels are all the same Royal romance with a Prince's Bodyguard and like this American bartender they hook up with, and so the novella is like the one night stand they have together. And then the full length book picks up several months later when they connect again. It is a little cliff hangery, which does kind of create some anger and some people that just want the whole thing free. But for the most part the trickle down of people who download that and then purchase the next one is about the same percentage as with my paid works. It just is much higher numbers, So when I finished my series I'm working on now. I think I'm gonna do the same thing just with the full length novel, because there will be six books in that series. So the buy through will be pretty good if people do it. But I'm waiting until I have the serious complete before I do that.

Mindy: Do you get a pretty good read through rate then?

Katee: I think about between 25 to 30% of people who read the novella, from My numbers, go on and by the second one and then from there, like 80% by the third one. So it's a pretty pretty solid read through, and it's the series is years old, and it's still, like sells. Pretty legit. Like from my opinion, there's like 30 to 40 downloads a day on the free novella, so yeah, which is pretty good.

Kate: I wanted to ask you in terms of, you said you're you know you're working on different things and trying to improve different things. I've also seen on Twitter. I guess I stalk you on Twitter. I don't know. I think you're one of those names when I'm like, scrolling through my Twitter feed. You always have something interesting to say or something interesting going on. Like, a couple years ago. I remember you got a Peleton and I was interested in that and you got a great Dane and I have 1/2 Great Dane ½ St. Bernard. So, anyway, and your toddler, little child, And I have I was toddler and I have older kids, so I don't know, I feel like I don't know, a weird secret connection, Even though I'm, like, super shy on Twitter. I never say anything. I just like silently. Anyway, you said you have, um, business spreadsheets. Am I right? Uou're kind of like trying to be more organized and stuff. And I would love to know about that because I I'm terrible at organization. I hate numbers. I hate spreadsheets. I try and start spreadsheets, and they turn into, like, this blobs of random bits of information. It's just I'm very bad at it. And it's such a chore when I start them to keep them up and to keep entering the data that they usually just like fall into disuse.

Mindy: Yeah, and that's very true, I can say from experience that Kate's outlines are also a huge fucking mess.

Katee: In 2018 I like, when the bottom of the market dropped out in traditional in a big way, I kind of had to be like, OK, I'm gonna go Indy and go hard or I'm gonna have to figure out how to get a day job when I'm not qualified for anything. In an effort to try to figure out what works and to have some actual data to work with, I created the spreadsheets, which in the last two years I have curated a lot better. So it's, I have a weekly sales and income for each book that I track and so like on Monday, I get up and put in the numbers and the estimated income. And then at the end of the month, I have an actual like profit and loss type report, right, because I have money coming in from several publishers from a couple different like freelance things and from you know, the six different places with Indy comes. So it's like money all over the place that is not on a normal schedule, and it's never paid at the same time. And so it's helpful for me to have, like, a quarterly view of like, here's where the money is, here's where it's coming in. Here's what I'm paying out. I'm not always great about being in the green, but, um, but it's it just gives me a nice macro view of it. And so, like when I run an ad, I can kind of have that data. I have a series that underperforms for various reasons, and so I made the first book in it free just to see if that would make any difference without me actually doing any ads or anything with it. And even I think I'm three weeks in and I can see now that the numbers for this month already better than last month, even with the free book so it's helpful to have that kind of information so I can make decisions going forward.

Kate: That seems like every Monday that seems like one part of me is like, Oh my God, that would be horrible. That sounds so tedious. And then the other part of me is like, Yes, but it's your fucking job, like that's how we should be thinking. Like I kind of like give myself a mental slap like yes dummy, if that’s gonna be your job that’s what You should do.

Katee: Last year I took, Becca Syme has these awesome courses, Write Better, Faster and strengths for writers and so I took both of those last year. And I found out that I'm a number two strategic with, like, number 5 input. So the spreadsheets really work for me. Um, but they, I can freely admit that they might not work for everybody because sometimes some people they stress out and, like, you know, so but it pleases me, and it's like a treat to me to pull my numbers. So that's kind of how I have been consistent with it. Tracking my expenses less consistent cause It stresses me out.

Kate: Mindy, you had Becca on the podcast.

Mindy: I did. I had Becca on the podcast And she talked about matching your personality strengths to your writing and business strengths and how those are helpful. And it was really cool. Like, I learned a lot from her. And like, much like you, I walked away going. Wow, I'm not doing this right.

Katee: It's so it's really, having that information is really helping me kind of lean into the stuff that works and stop beating my head against the stuff that doesn't like. I don't plot anymore at all because it just never worked out for me and It was always a study in frustration and so but learning that why that is was really helpful. So now I'm like, I don't feel guilt about not doing it anymore. Cause it's just wasting my time.

Kate: That's awesome. I really wanted to take that quiz after I listened to Mindy's podcast and like, whatever the test it is, it's not a quiz, but, um, and then I sort of forgot about it. Back burnered it, But that's I don't know. I really feel like I need that in our little group. The work that we do.

Mindy: I'm the numbers person which saying that of the three of us, I'm the one that has the strength in numbers is not a compliment or any type of like testament to my math skills. It's just that, you know, we are a trio of idiots. Well, you know, in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is King. I'm the one eye. So I'm doing that. I do the numbers, but it's like I do, I do every 15 days, um, do a balance sheet and do our expenses and our what we've made. We’re making money, which was the goal. Anyway, it's just in order to actually crunched the numbers and see what works, we would have to probably hire someone because because we really are floundering in this shallow end of the pool. Like where you know, the kids all peed.

Katee: I mean, I have friends who have been in Indie that make, like, absurd money that don’t track this So it's it's definitely everybody kind of figures out what works best for them.

Kate: Can you talk a little bit about hybrid being a hybrid author? Do you consider yourself a hybrid? Or do you feel like you have left the traditional part of your career behind and are now, indie? And that's where you're happy and where you are, you know, most successful in making money.

Katee: I am hybrid. I actually just recently sold a trilogy to Sourcebooks, so I am officially hybrid again. Um, but it's definitely been really strange to go back to working with the publisher after having full creative control. Um, because part of the things that I have loved so much about being Indie is that no one tells me no, like, no one tells me that I'm going too far and I write really bonkers books like Admittedly. And in traditional, there was a lot of like, Oh, this is too far like with some editors more than others. Like I've had some really amazing editors that helped me shine my vision to perfection instead of like trimming it. But just being able to just do it for myself and like, go full out has really been successful in, like a lot of my readers are. I'm gaining new readers as a result of that.

And so it's been very strange going back to traditional. It's also giving me a lot of perspective of like what my time's worth, because now I have actual like numbers and money amounts and and I can see like, Well, that's not a good deal. Before going indie, a lot of it, like there's that such a power imbalance in traditional like when, especially when you're new author, it's like you’re like I am so thankful that they gave me this deal. Like That's so amazing. They're the power holder. And once I realized, like, you know, I could do this on my own. I don't necessarily need them. And so it's given me a lot of freedom to be like, OK, yes, I'll take this deal. But like, we're gonna talk it out, I'm gonna have to feel really good about it. In order for me to say, yes because I can make X amount of money on my own. Or Or I won't take this deal because you're not offering me enough. And I can go do this myself and with less stress and be paid, you know, in 60 days instead of in like 18 months.

But I think traditional does have on attraction as far as like, I really like having eggs in multiple baskets, and I'm very excited about this new series I'm writing with them. It's like a Greek mythology retelling in contemporary setting, and I think it's gonna be trade. I don't quote me on that. It's giving me a chance to get my books in the hands of readers who might not find me if the read mostly e book, but it's also three books, so I feel OK giving three books just to see what happens. But I plan to be primarily Indy and, like my publisher, is very, very supportive of that, which I appreciate. My goal is to be like 75 80% Indie, like 20% traditional.

Mindy: I'm curious about cross over because my experience has been the Indie readers, are Indy readers and trad readers are trad readers. And since you've got a foot in both worlds, do you see people picking up both, um, parts of your author series like, Do you see people buying your trad books are the same people that are buying your indy books? Or is that data you just don't have?

Katee: At least a subset of the readership does transfer over. I mean, my numbers on my indie books are not necessarily like my very successful Series with Grand Central that start in 2015 like the numbers with my Indie are not necessarily higher than that. But I do have a lot of readers that started there and jumped with me because this is my indie books are kind of similar. But with this new Series, I've actually intentionally seeded in this world that so the Indy readers potentially will grab those new books because they have been introduced to the world already. Um, but we'll see. I mean, I don't know what the price points gonna be, and that is something that matters to a lot of people and understandably so. So if it does end up being traditional like a 10.99 book, I think that that will be a barrier for some readers.

Kate: And it's so hard when traditional also wants to price the Kindle book so high. People just do not want to pay that. And I know it's a deliberate strategy they're doing cause they want people to read on paper still, but it's like there's a certain extent where you can force the market. But there's some people who just want to read on their kindle. They do not want to mess with paper.

Katee: Yeah, agreed, and especially if you're looking at a new author like 10.99 for a book, isn’t... That's a lot of money. And I am not a particularly conscious of price point as a buyer, but, like even 10.99 gives me pause. We'll check out my library and just see if I like it or not before I buy. I don't know. It will be interesting to see if there is crossover now that I have any numbers to compare with the new Series because I have intentionally seeded it in. But I've also found that, like some readers, just like the Series they like and they don't want any other series from you, even if it's like almost the same thing.

Mindy: You mentioned earlier that you do have one paid ad that you keep going and that it works for you. And that's for your loss leader. Ah, you're Novella the free Novella that leads into the six book Series. Where Are You putting that? is that on Amazon? Is it on Facebook? Where is that placed?

Katee: It's only on Facebook's, mostly because I have yet to figure out Amazon ads. I keep trying, and I just It's it takes more time and energy than I can devote at this point in time. But the Facebook ad I listen to Sky Warren had a couple of classes with RWA a few years ago, So I followed that instructions and help set up like a couple different types of ads with this and narrowed it down to the one that on Facebook that, um, that does well and it's consistently like 10 cents per click. It's just runs and occasionally it will, like kind of go up and then I'll just shift things around. And but for the most part, I just like, set it and like, check it once a week just to make sure nothing crazy's happened. And yet it just kind of does its own thing and has worked out really well.

Kate: Facebook is a little more, set it and forget it. But I babysit the Amazon ads constantly. They are definitely a little more sensitive, and it's hard to get them to spend sometimes.

Katee: Sometimes like I had one that I was like, I'll just run this and just see what happens and kind of like test it out and it spent money like my teenager with my credit card. And I was not necessarily seeing the sales corresponding to like make it worth my while. And so I tried about a month of that just to see if I could, like, finesse it. And it's apparently just not my skill set. So, So Amazon. And I don't get along all that well with advertising. Facebook just gets a little more user friendly and I feel like the information just makes more sense to me.

Kate: Well, Amazon is difficult cause they hold back so much information from us, even though they know everything. So it's That's a little frustrating. So you're full time author, right? Like, this is your realsy job?

Katee: Um, yes.

Kate: So, can you talk about a little bit being a full time author? And how you balance that with your life and maybe even how you're balancing that right now with... I assume your whole family is home. Are you guys all healthy? Has Covid 19 come to visit you?

Katee: We've been all healthy. My husband is technically out of work, but is doing a side job out in the middle of the country by himself. So it's fine, but, um, yeah, we've all been healthy. We're on week six of self isolation. Ah, it's it gets a little hairy. I invested in something noise canceling headphones and they are my life. Um, but I've been full time author since 2012. I am a creature of habit, and so I, through trial and error, have discovered that my best focus hours are in the morning. And so I get up and write in the morning until approximately noon ish, depending on, like I do it in 15 minute sprints, just because my four year old is very needy. And vocal. So I can usually keep him occupied for 15 minutes to just, like, do the thing and, you know, do those sprints. And then until I do that, until I hit my word count.

Kate: I could see some people saying, like, I couldn't do that like 15 minutes and then to like, have your concentration broken and then to jump back into it. I mean, that's difficult.

Katee: It's one of those things that again doing that strengths finder stuff with Becca Syme has because I'm a number one activator. So it's like that initial push to do an action is like, really rewarding for me. So doing that over and over and over again with 15 minutes? I don't know. I guess I just trained my brain to do it. I would definitely not work for everybody. Um, and I…

Kate: It’s very much a mom thing.

Katee: Yes. I don't know what I'm gonna do when he goes to kindergarten, and I suddenly have, like, the entire day. It's I who knows what'll happen then. So I and very deadline focused. So I figure out when my deadline is, and then reverse engineer my word count. Just so I have the data cause I'm a data freak. And so then I just hit that deadline every day, and I intentionally don't schedule writing on the weekends. So if I do it, it's just bonus.

Kate: And this your daily word count generally what are you aiming for?

Katee: Usually about 2000 words a day. Last year, I wrote over 600,000 words, and I think I hit 5000 words a day on like two days. So it's just like the little bite size chunks that just make a big, big difference. Writing is kind of like my self care. It's like the thing I do for me. And so, luckily, I've been very fortunate that in this time of intense stress and anxiety that writing is like my escape, and so I haven't had too much struggle with that. It's just enforcing my family to respect the time because they normally don't see it that much. They’re in school or at work or what have you. And so, But I mean, they've been pretty good about it, for the most part, and especially because when my husband's declared non essential, it's like, Well, we're a single income household. So here we go, the financial side of things it can get really hairy, like 2018 was really rough because we had the boom in 2012 and then, like around 15 and 2016 like everybody's income started dropping. And and I think mine have like, halved three years in a row or something crazy, and that's why I went Indie that I have a little more control and I'm making you know 70% instead of like, 25 I can pump out the book because I write really fast and pretty clean for the most part, and so I'm able to like, release quite a few books a year without having to worry about, like quality being negatively affected.

Mindy: And how many books do you typically put out in a year?

Katee: I think I average about six. They're like, they're not, they’re like 76 to 80,000. They're not particularly long books, for the most part, So I'm not writing 120,000 word books like six of them, like just They're nice, like perfect bite sized books that, like a 4 99 price point. For the most part.

Kate: Isn't that on the higher end a little bit for Indy? Like I know the last author we talked to. Her books were more like around 40,000 possibly fifty.

Katee: The thing is, I know a lot of indie authors like that to 99 cent price points. Um, and 2.99 is what I Well, I guess if I had 40,000 be 3 99 because I just really hard to bounce back from that 99 cent thing that we had for a while there and most readers will pay up to 4 99 without blinking, especially if they trust you as an author. And I feel that my work is worth that so that so I don't feel bad charging 4.99 for like, a 70,000 word book. That's kind of part of it is that I want to make sure that the the story's worth my while to, like, get out and put out an appropriate price point. That's not gonna like hamper my, uh, like, perceived value.

Mindy: Pricing is all over the place for Indie, so if you could talk about that for a little bit because you mentioned the 99 cent thing that you had to recover from, so could you talk about that because I knew there was a big wave where that's what everybody was doing 99 cents. So can you talk about the pros and cons of that?

Kate: But also, can you also talk about the value just to make this question more difficult? Can you talk about the value of an author's work? Cause I think you know, a lot of people talk about that, like, you know, we can't undervalue ourselves and recently in traditional when the, um, quarantining first started out and if you saw this on Twitter, there was, um, a website. I can't remember what it's called, and I don't want to give him press anyway. But anyways, they made a bunch of books free that they used to make it sort of like a lending library that these, like, scanned books that they would lend out. But they opened it up and made all these books available as many lends as they want and NPR covered it. And a bunch of other outlets like, Hey, look at this great thing the site is doing. And authors were like, They're not doing a great thing. They're giving our books away for free. They did not pay anything for them. Like this is terrible. Why are you pushing that? And then authors were getting pushback from people on Twitter, saying like, Oh, you're selfish. You should be happy. Someone's reading your book and it kind of blows my mind how many people have that feeling about it.

Katee: For exposure. I have a, um, a pin somewhere that, cause This similar conversation has often had in my, like I knit in like the yarn industry, and there was a pin a while back that says, like, if I wanted exposure, I'd get my tits out.

Katee: The 99 cent trend happened when I was still with a small press, and they very much jumped on it, which sucks. Like it's, I understand how attractive it is, And I think that it's really valuable as, like, a sale price point, like a special like for a limited time. Like I have a book on sale right now for 99 cents combined, you automatically with Amazon bumped down to 35% like royalty rate if you're under ah to 99. When I went Indy kind of looked around was like, Well, my attritional books are 5.99 books, And so my readers are obviously okay with paying that it's so competitive out there, and a lot of people feel that they can take get an edge by having lower prices. But I have not seen that to be true. Necessarily like it, there are things that can give you an edge. I don't necessarily know what they are, but I don't think the price point like it might get somebody to one click, but it won't necessarily make them, like, sit down and read a book or buy the next ones. And and I can't survive on 30 cents a book I got bills to pay.

Kate: We just had a release and we tried a 99 cent release for a new book to see if it would work and it did not. Did not get us anywhere. And all our pre orders were like but pennies in our pockets so. It sucked.

Katee: It's such a crowded marketplace right now that the things that make you stand out are not necessarily the price and people who will pay 3 99 don't blink at paying 4.99. And I mean, when you know there's a threshold for that. Of course, right. But I just refused to be apologetic about, like, charging that, like, I had a conversation with an author friend recently that they were like, Well, we should, Or you should put that price at, like, 2 99 because that'll really, you know, bring in people. And I'm like, no, I'm good, like take a little bit less sales and get the higher royalty rate and then potentially have, like, you know, a reader that actually reads it and enjoys it, and potentially buy the next one.

And I haven't actually had pushback on that at all, which I think some authors fear, that they'll get readers that, like you're selfish and charging too much. And it's a personal choice that every author has to make for themselves. Like I don't do Kindle Unlimited. I just I've always had really high sales on the other retailers, even traditionally, and so I just have put a lot of effort into building up those platforms because I don't trust Amazon completely. And and I also am very vocal about like, you know, if you can't afford this, like, go to your library cause I still get paid for those, Um, whereas that free lending thing was, you know, we don't get paid for that, like go to your library, check out overdrive like. And I know not everybody has that option. But it's just especially right now. We are spending so much time Home alone, stuck here like, and what we're consuming is art like it's whether it's books or TV or, it's all art, and it's astounds me that people are so unrepentantly like No, I'm just gonna take it. I don't feel like paying for it.

Mindy: The argument that I hear the most that is usually thrown out for pro pirating is that people will download it and because it was free because they never paid for it, they might do a one click and download it and never read it simply because it's been devalued, which we talked about earlier to with a 99 cent click, it's been devalued simply by being free or extremely cheap. That's something that I mean, I find myself doing as a consumer. If I buy a book for 99 cents, it’s probably gonna set on my pile because I wasn't that excited about it in the first place. It just happened to be 99 cents, so I bought it. Now does that make it okay to pirate? No, it does not. I need those pennies in my pocket. This is what I do for a living. So I think the argument is interesting, though, if you translate it over into price points because I do think it's possible to devalue your work by pricing too low.

Katee: Yeah, because if people get used to paying 99 cents and that's all they pay for you and you suddenly put out a book at 4.99 there might be push back because there you've established that you are worth a certain price point or your work is work worth a certain price point. And it's hard to come back from that. And I think a lot of in the authors and even publishers that you know, jumped on that train. Eventually, people will get used to it and stop complaining. But there is a level of expectation that you set up. I got bills to pay. I do this for a living, and my kids eat a lot. I want to be paid for my work and and I'd have also found that, like you said with the free books or the 99 cent books and sometimes when you do these promotions, they people download it and then just never look at it again. And I mean, I do that with full price books, so I can only imagine it with the free ones.

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Kate: Can we, um, talk about sex? On writing sex. Are your children ever allowed to look over your shoulder as you're writing? Especially, I mean, obviously the four year old. It doesn't matter. The older kids do they know what you do, are they? How do you handle that?

Katee: Um, yeah. They know we're really a really open family with, like everything, communication and information and what not? And so they very much know what I write and that it's soo particularly saucy, and I don't curtail what my kids read with a caveat being that they cannot read my books until they're over 18 just cause I don't want to pay for that therapy. But if they want to read like saucy books of other authors, like, you know, go for it. If that's like, I read I started romance at, like, 12 or 13 and and they were scorchers really intense, so I don't—

Kate: One of my grandmothers. She would give me her romance novels, her Janet Dailey's and, um, stuff like that.

Mindy: I had a similar experience where my grandma would read it, and then my mom would read it, and then they give it to me and I was 12 or 13 and I was learning some things. And then I would like, you know, be reading something and, you know, feeling a little bit saucy myself. But like, Well, this is really turning me on that I'm like, Dude, my grandma read this book. My grandma held this physical object and her eyes moved over these same words, and maybe my grandma got a little turned on, too. And now I'm ruined. Now I'm broken.

Katee: My mom was always a big like thriller reader, and so she read Iris Johansen and I would read her books, but then I went to the library and found her historicals, which were I mean, I recently went back and reread some of them like thinking like, surely they weren't that saucy? like I just felt like they were saucy because of my age. No, no, they were really, really hot.

Mindy: As an adult now and then, of course, because I'm like, 41. But when I was in my twenties and like my late teens, all my expectations were blown. They talk about, like, porn with dudes. But I'm telling you, we got the same problem because it's like, I was like, I'm not rolling around on the floor like so completely lost in this physical experience that I rolled too close to the fireplace in my hair catches on fire like, No, that's gonna happen. You know, it's like that that I have never had that experience, so I don't know. That's just an aside.

Katee: My mom set me down and she's like, read what you want, but understand that sex will not change a man, and he will not change how he feels about you if you have sex with him. And I was like, Okay, Mom, I think that romance novels could be really helpful in just even if they're like, so over the top, it still is like prioritizing female pleasure. And that is something that we don't see in a lot of media, more now than we used to. But it's still very male gaze-y, and so I think that can be awesome. But it's yet it's definitely ah above and beyond reality in a number of ways.

Kate: I mean, I don't know if it was so much the old ones, but I know like newer romance novels, the sex scenes are very female positive, and there is a lot of focus, on like him, pleasuring her like it's not just about like him.

Katee: Well, my middle child is just turned 13 and he I don't know how we got to this conversation like, it was one of those ones where you just, like, kind of black out as a parent and, like, try to be cool and like And then afterwards you're like, what? But we're talking about, like it somehow came about, like talking about orgasms and like the clitoris. And he was just like what? They don't talk about this in sex ed! like I don't understand. Like where is it? What's happening? I'm like, Oh God, there are certain romance novels and I actually went through my list and, like, made a short list which I will give him if he ever asked me, but like that are very good on demonstrating like purpose of foreplay. And like they use language that isn't particularly flowery. So it's like they would be a really helpful how-to manual. I’m like here is some things that you should probably know before you get intimate with another person.

Kate: I think you should post that online as like a parents how-to like Romance Novels to give to Children who are Wanting a how-to.

Mindy: Or like, just adult males. You can just put it up there for adult males who have no idea what the clitoris is. It’s a public service. You should do that.

Katee: This information is going to put you ahead of 90% of like dudes, like heterosexual dudes your age until you're like 25.

Kate: But even then I had a friend whose husband was confused when she was pregnant, about how the baby would come through her pee hole. Oh, no, she was like, No, sweetheart, they're different. Please.

Katee: Oh, you're a sweet angel.

Kate: I just feel like so many men are, like, eww, like women's bodies, like, you know, it just think it's, like, gross. They're weird and they don't want to know about it.

Katee: So it's like, this is information that could be very useful to you. And the more you know about it, the more like of an asset you are as a male human being. And honestly, this is just going to give you an edge. When you start dating, someday, learn these things, learn these things. Yeah, but we're very open in this family about like that stuff, no matter how, like, occasionally, like, sketched out I get. And just like, I don't really wanna have this conversation. But you know what you asked me. So we're gonna go. So they know I write really saucy and they know that Not allowed To read my books until later on.

Mindy: I write YA. And my traditional books are under YA. And so I have occasionally run into, because I worked at a school for a really long time. Luckily, I left shortly after probably my raciest stuff came out or I mean, it's not even racy. That’s YA right? So they have sex, and that's a problem. But it is funny, because every now and then it's like adults will be talking to me, and they're like, that book was, like, kind of hot. And I'm like, Yeah, I know.

Katee: I have to make sure I delete my signature on my email before I email the school officials. I forgot once, and they're like you’re a romance author? I’m like please don't Google me, like you just don't, like, just save ourselves both the headache. I write very saucy. I'm sorry. Not sorry. But like, you know, just let's save ourselves that talk.

Kate: Because people are weird about it. And people are so fascinated, too, by authors, you know, they're like, Oh, you're an author. Tell me about that, you know, And it's just yeah, as if they find out you're an author of Of books that are, You know, the then I feel like it would be a whole other conversation in school. Other parent relations are already so sometimes awkward. And PTA’s, you feel like you're being judged and just weird.

Katee: I constantly forget that sometimes people in real life follow me on like Instagram. And so like one of my sons, his friend's mother was like, I never know what I'm gonna get from you if it's gonna be like knitting or like, straight up explicit sex scenes. And I'm like, I'm sorry, and she's like, No, keep it up. I was like, Okay, cool. But my neighbors will follow me on Instagram, and it's a little like a head trip sometimes, because I have these Barbies, I occasionally act up, no act out like position sex scenes, like from a menage because, right, you want to make sure everything does what it's supposed to do, and you just get the biggest, like kick out of it. And I am very grateful and feel very fortunate, because if it could very much gone a different way. If they were less cool people, it's hard sometimes to reconcile like real life. Katee, who you know, doesn't shower till three PM And like author Katee Online, who's like, sometimes clever and occasionally funny.

Mindy: I think too, with romance, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about porn again. Um, and erotica. You said it earlier. It's a fantasy world and, like we all know that and accept that. So when those lines cross with the real world where Katee who is, you know, the mom at PTA Making the Brownies, And Katee, who is writing a mmf you know, overnight or sleep slumber party. It's two different things, and people have a hard time when those things intersect and I had to laugh, like it's not funny. But at the same time it was like, pretty amusing to Me. I had a student who graduated a female student, graduated, really pretty, went to Hollywood, wanted to be an actress. And, of course, you know it didn't work out. Never works out. And so she ended up in a couple of porns. But, like real, like low rent shit porns.

And her brother, her younger brother was still a student. And so it was one of those things where, you know, like somebody found out she was in a porn and all the kids, all the guys are like, Oh my God, I'm go watch that. I always thought she was hot, right. Then they go watch it and they were like, I don't feel Well.

Katee: Right? Because it's it's the familiar and like right?

Mindy: Because it's a person that they know and that they know her brother. And when they're watching, you know, various things be performed upon her body. They're just like, Oh, like they were turning it off. I would over hear conversations because I worked in the library and I would over hear students like when they don't know that you're in the stacks and it was like, sweet. And, you know, in a way they were, like, feeling very protective of her. And they were just like, Man, I didn't like that when he did this. Oh, you guys, I mean, this is a good lesson for you.

Katee: My ex brother in law is about four years younger than me and he, we are occasionally still in contact, and he had read not one of my particularly saucy books, like one of the earlier ones, and he's like, I can't read your books. He's like, I just hear you in my head and it makes me kind of uncomfortable. And I was like that. That's very fair, my eldest, because she knows I'm writing a female female book for the last book in my current Series and she's like, I really want to read that one. I'm like When you're 18. If you’d like a female female book I will happily like, there is a ton of them whether, like YA or like romance, But, um, you can't read mine.

Mindy: My mom, like, has a problem with my books.

Katee: I don't really talk to my mom, so it's kind of a non issue. But when my grandma was still alive, she was like, I'm really proud of you. But like maybe you could write books or a little less like, you know, sex and a little more Jesus. I’m like oh, thank you for the support. Sometimes friends remind me like, Hey, something like, you know, the whole not all press is bad press, and a lot of people like these people that have the misfortune of being, on like the wrong side of a Twitter mob. A lot of those people that are angry are buying their books just to hate read and so absolutely, who's laughing all the way to the bank? You know, all you have to do is get off Twitter, and it's like they're not even talking.

Mindy: As a traditionally published author, I have a goal to be banned and that has not happened yet because when you get banned and you write for teens, people buy that shit like cocaine. I mean, they love it. Believe me, I think I just am not read widely enough yet because at least at least three of them are easily bannable.

Kate: Well, Female of the Species should definitely get some banning. I mean, the girl like sets a dude on fire or something.

Mindy: Yeah, I know, but I Instead I keep getting like School Library Journal, like, you know, stars. And, like people somebody actually like legit gave me a medal. Oklahoma gave me a medal. You, but also like I cannot get banned. I don't know. I always tell everybody, when they’re like, what do you think it would take for you to get banned? And I'm like, It's simple. It's female masturbation. Yeah, Yeah, if I put that in a YA book, I'm done. And also very famous suddenly.

Kate: That's kind of a sad statement, but very true.

Mindy: I'll have to figure it out. I mean, I don't want to write a whole book about that. I feel like that might be... but, hey, we are all stuck at home, so maybe maybe. Oh, my God, Kate, That's my next book.

Kate: That's your next book. You could be like. Yeah, I researched this subject heavily during the COVID 19 quarantine I was researching, and researching.

Mindy: Everybody will be like what's your process? And I'm like for writing or like what?

Kate: Really Hands on with the research. I like to get in there.

Katee: Don’t ask questions you don’t want the answers to.

Mindy: I will answer you, and you will blush. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we've had you for about an hour. We should probably let you go. Um, but thank you so much. Great conversation. Thank you so much.

Kate: I'm so glad that you were willing to do this. You are so interesting. And you have so many great things to say.

Katee: I had fun. This was fun. Thank you for inviting me.

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