Caitlin Wahrer On Writing About Male Sexual Assault Victims

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Caitlin Wahrer, author of The Damage which released on June 15 and Caitlin has written a really edgy, propulsive read. It's all about a small town family dealing with the aftermath of a brutal rape of one of their family members. But one of the things that makes this so interesting is that the victim is male. And as soon as I read the summary, I thought, oh well this is different. So I'm first of all just was so entranced by the description because it tackles something that is important to me, which of course is sexual assault and the aftermath and how it affects so many people, not just the victim. Then to kind of flip the script and have the victim be male, I thought was really pretty ingenious. So if you would like to talk a little bit about the book, The Damage and why you decided to approach it the way you did. 

Caitlin: The first idea that I had was about a husband and wife, a problem that they were going to go through in terms of the wife realizing that her husband was going through a pretty negative change and was starting to feel vengeful about something and I thought, okay, so I'm going to give him a younger sibling but I don't want it to be a female. If I'm going to have a victim in the book, I want it to be male because I don't want to write female. And that was really how I started off with the very beginning of Nick's character. From there, I ended up deciding pretty cautiously to be honest, to write about sexual assault and just with each draft of the book, I would have someone else read it and be like, what do you think of this? And kind of talk to them about it. And with each draft, I decided okay, like I'm going to keep going with this version of the story. 

But ultimately it really came from a place of almost feeling a little bit tired of reading about female victims and just wanting it to be different. But then once I had done that I realized I had set up this total need to talk about what Nick would be going through and maybe parts of it would be recognizable to victims of any gender. But some of it is kind of specific to male survivors or at least specific to like broad strokes what researchers say male survivors go through. It ended up being this really interesting, possibly important or at least hopefully done in a way that isn't harmful discussion of what a young man might experience after a sexual assault. 

Mindy: You mentioned that you have done some research. Many of the things that Nick goes through are very similar to what a female would go through. So for example, just of course the feeling of being violated, but also that concern about, well I went willingly to this man's house, we had drinks together. Does it look bad that I was out cruising? That of course is universal. And as we all know, is the first thing that comes up in female rape case. What were you wearing? Where were you? How much had you had to drink? At what point did you remove consent? And is that even plausible? The similarities are definitely there. If you could talk a little bit about your research and the similarities between a female survivor and then of course the differences between a female and a male survivor of sexual assault. 

Caitlin: I completely agree with what you said about some of the big similarities. I think that anyone who engages the criminal justice process, whether they do it voluntarily looking for justice or if it kind of happens without them even really almost consenting to the fact that there is now going to be a criminal procedure. You know, a lot of times people aren't really told what it's going to entail, how long it's going to take, what possible outcomes are. And in the case of this story, it really gets kicked off because Nick's friends call the police on their way to the hospital. And so he feels like he didn't even really decide to involve the police, it happened there. Here and now he feels the need to deal with it. But also, I think that no matter who you are, if you engage the criminal process, a big part of what happens is your story just gets completely picked apart and almost removed from you in the sense that people are interviewing you, they really want to make sure that your statements are consistent. 

So you're almost getting cross examined when you're getting interviewed, depending on how the interviewer handles the situation. Some do it differently, but it's kind of common, at least for detectives or police officers, Sheriff's deputies, whoever is doing it in that jurisdiction to kind of really be needling almost the survivor about what happened because they know that a defense attorney is going to do the same thing later on. Criminal procedures tend to kind of be a zero sum game from the defense perspective. Not always, not every defense attorney, but I do think that that's a huge part of what happens. And so that part of the experience can be re-traumatizing and really brutal and unhelpful no matter who you are. So that's another thing that I think is really similar regardless of your gender. 

But one thing that I kind of realized as I just read things over the years that I worked on the book and eventually started reading textbooks almost about male survivors, how it impacts their view of themselves as men. And this is not universal at all. But a common thing that this textbook was talking about and that I read in other places is this idea that men in America and probably lots of other places grow up with this really strong message about what it means to be a man, what it means to be masculine, you're a winner. You end fights, you are sexually aggressive and sexually available, always. You are kind of supposed to be physically dominant and being sexually victimized by someone is the antithesis of a lot of that messaging that men get. It also really impacts their views of themselves as men and women definitely have their own things that they would struggle with. It's not exactly that because that's not the messaging that they're getting. 

And so that was something that I realized was kind of missing in the story that it would be really natural that Nick would probably struggle with that, especially given how his brother was acting in the wake of the crime, trying to fix everything, really micromanaging him and breathing down his neck about what Nick wants and what he thinks Nick wants and not listening to him. And so Nick loses a lot of agency throughout the story. And some of it I think naturally is tied to his view of himself as a man. 

Mindy: That's one of the, I think the biggest things that comes into it as far as the differences. I just very recently finished listening to Missoula by Jon Krakauer. The football team was basically sexually assaulting people left and right and they weren't getting reported or it was being brushed under the rug. One of their administrations even just referred to it as thuggery. One of the things that was really interesting to me listening to that book, like it was very, very difficult to listen to because for one thing they examined very carefully, two or three different cases. One of them, the assailant did end up serving hard time and in another got off like scot free. And what you're talking about with the absolute picking apart of the story and everyone being asked for the most extreme details, not only intimate details, but also  - did you ask before you changed positions, did you consent to change? Like questions that are highly detailed about things that you may not be making a note of in the moment and they’re you know, intense moments anyway. 

And I think for me, one of the things while reading your book that stood out was the fact that Nick, as I said before is dealing with a lot of the same when it comes to similar reactions of how much of this is my fault and was I consenting to a point? Now with Nick, it's a little different because he is assaulted. He's hit on the head before the crime actually commences so he doesn't have to work quite so hard to establish himself as an unwilling participant. However, just the fact that he is male brings it back to - for women if they freeze and they're asked why didn't you scream? Why didn't you fight back? You know, the answer is like I'm paralyzed with fear, but for a man like you were saying you're supposed to fight back, like fighting is your instinct, you know, why didn't that happen? 

Caitlin: I kind of made a point because I was using the internet also the way that there would be a newspaper article published online and there's always a comment section and those comments sections are just the worst places on the planet basically. And I kind of felt like that was a really natural place for people to be almost kind of putting some of that toxic masculine ideas out there of like - is it even really believable that he was unconscious from being hit on the head? Do we even believe that part of it? He probably did consent to all of this, and then he made up a story, or maybe he was actually so drunk and embarrassed that he couldn't hold his liquor, like, just kind of all of this trash that people in real life post on these stories. But in this case they're posting in about a man and the different things that they would think about that, and also some comments about the fact that he's a gay man, all of that kind of coming out and being part of what Nick is dealing with the anxiety and additional trauma around the event, knowing that people think that kind of stuff about him and are talking about it and wondering if it's going to impact the outcome of the case, and does it even matter? It's impacting him right now.

Mindy: Right. I thought too, one of the things that really got my attention was the pattern for the assailant is still very similar because they talk about this man who has done this before, who is looking for younger men who may not necessarily be out, and so he knows that if he can attack these people, the possibility of the crime actually being reported is lower. Of course they have the toxic masculinity to deal with, but they're also making that want to even be reporting well, I was in this bar, because we know that’s a gay bar. The similarities between when rapists are on the hunt or kind of picking out someone they might be interested in using as a victim, looking for someone that maybe is younger, a little more insecure, a little more naive. I thought it was interesting the way those elements stay static. 

Caitlin: It felt like that was at least somewhat natural to do. Although I think that it's also possible that men who sexually assault other men, maybe there are some different characteristics for them. I think that they're also just not really talked about and researched as much, you know. But I did think that in some cases that I have read about or I've you know read books where a man wrote an account after the fact, it did seem like those kinds of things were just like you said static, similar people who do this are doing it for a reason that doesn't really have anything to do with who you are as the victim. They're just picking you out. Thinking this is gonna work for me to get away with this.

Mindy: Easy prey.

Caitlin: Yeah.

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Mindy: One of the things that I liked so much about the book was showing those ripples throughout a group setting, a family dynamic where everybody is affected by this because I don't think that we as a society, no matter what the gender of the victim is, I don't think that we really give enough weight to how this radiates outwardly from that person, how this one event impacts so many people. And one of the things in particular that was almost in another way, kind of another gender flip that I thought was really interesting - the older brother who is married to Julia is having a hard time thinking about Julia now because she used to be a defense lawyer, and she in her past has defended rapists as a defense lawyer for the state.

And it begins to kind of chip away for him at this trust that had been in this marriage and now he has to think of his wife as someone in the past has been on the side, because the definition of her job, of the assailant. And they have multiple conversations where he's kind of picking at that and and and asking himself, you know, who is this person that is my wife, that if the straw were drawn differently, she would be defending the man who raped my little brother? And that's one of the relationships that is negatively affected by this event. So if you could talk a little bit about how that just radiates out and affects so many aspects of course, of the survivors life, but then those around them.

Caitlin: I love the example that you picked out because I really liked writing that I think because I was a defense attorney. And so I think that maybe even Tony's point of view is somewhat maybe a more critical side of myself looking at myself. But at the same time, I agree with Julia that defense attorneys are completely constitutionally necessary. And so that was a really interesting thing to write. And it definitely, like you said, as Tony becomes more and more angry and dysfunctional about what has happened and what is continuing to happen as the process goes on, he feels like he can't talk to Julia because she's not going to get it because of her history. At the same time, Julia is feeling like Tony's being totally unreasonable and she can't share everything with him because he's in such an unreasonable place. 

And so their communication completely breaks down over the course of the book and I think that you definitely see little snippets of how it impacts their kids, but I didn't focus on that too heavily. Also how it impacts the relationship between Nick and the friend he was with at the bar when he went home with the man. He feels like it had nothing to do with her, but she seems to feel guilty about it and that just makes him feel tired, and like it's worse that she's acting like she has anything to do with it. And it really just kind of their relationship falls apart and maybe he does have some anger at her once he starts to really process it. 

And then at the same time Nick and Tony have a father in common and they each have mothers and Julia has a mom. And so the extended family all become impacted. I think for me as a former attorney, most of what I did really was an adult criminal law, it was juvenile defense. And so that's just defending kids, mostly teenagers who were charged with crimes. And I also did a lot of child protection work. So that's cases where the state steps in to protect a child in a home. With those kinds of cases, everything that I worked on was impacting a family unit. That's kind of just how I've grown to see a single criminal act impacts so many different people and how that family unit responds to the, either the criminal act or maybe an allegation of child neglect or allegation of child abuse, whatever it is, it's how that family functions or doesn't function that can determine so much of how that case ends. 

Because even in juvenile cases, although sometimes we're looking at punishing a juvenile for specifically what they did or did not do during that moment of the alleged criminal act, a lot of it depends on their conduct after the fact. So even if they did something quite damaging, if they go through a whole year of therapy, they might end up not having a criminal record that's going to follow them into adulthood. Whereas if they do something really small, but then they're violating their terms of conditions of release for the next whole year, they might end up with something that's going to follow them because they just weren't doing what the court wanted them to do. And so I'm just really used to seeing things as how is the family handling the situation? How are they supporting each other or how are they falling apart? How are they negatively impacting each other? And what is that doing to what the process is going to look like as we go forward?

Mindy: And it has such a huge impact. I worked in a high school for 14 years. So I know that when you have situations like that, I don't think we give enough credit to Children often about what they do and do not understand what they can process or what they're capable of, but I also think at times it goes the other way where we we forget that you know, a 16, 17 18 year old is still a kid and are like completely overwhelmed by so many things. 

Caitlin: Totally, totally. And I think for me at least coming from that background, even though Nick is a 20 year old man, I think of him still as being a kid in certain ways. Like when I think about young men, I always think about not having your frontal lobes and what a difference that makes the part of your brain that helps you say pause - is this really a good idea? I'm having a really impulsive desire to do something. In Nick's case to me what's being impacted by his not being fully developed as an adult is later in the book, he really struggles with self harm and just kind of like impulsive desires to cause harm to himself because of what's happened and he's really not able to pause and stop himself. And I think that that's really realistic and I saw that in young men sadly as in my job.

Mindy: It’s really interesting that you included that aspect, especially of youth because you're right, we aren't fully developed mentally for a while, even though we are legally adults, I don't know that the brain can really align with that moment of turning 18 and suddenly know you're an adult now!

Caitlin: Totally. I agree with you. Yeah. I think it's like 26 or maybe it's 24, I can't remember .but it's well into your twenties for most male brains at least to finalize all of the structures of their brain. 

Mindy: Yes, it is. And I know that I personally, I tell people often, I don't feel Like I really knew who I was or what I wanted until I was probably 30. I think it's an interesting kink that you threw there where the victim’s also quite young and maybe in some ways not even fully capable of processing what has actually happened to them. Initially Nick just keeps insisting. No, I'm fine. Like even the morning after when people are in the hospital with him and his face is smashed and he's like, I'm fine. 

Caitlin: I think that's really common. I think that happens also for adults, sometimes it's partly, you know, the trauma of very, very slowly being able to understand almost or at least acknowledge what has just happened. But definitely I think a huge part of it too is that throughout the whole book and from that very first interaction, Tony is making his younger brother feel like a kid the whole time they're interacting and it's the last thing that actually wants. 

Mindy: You got a blurb from Stephen King. Congratulations!

Caitlin: Oh my gosh, thank you. 

Mindy: That's a nice little feather in your cap. How did you go about making that happen?

Caitlin: I feel like I can't even take credit for it. My editor, I don't know if she sent him a letter or just an email or how it happened, but I think it was my editor Pam Dorman who reached out to him and what I kind of have heard through the grapevine after the fact from someone else is that he's really good to debut authors. He knows what it was like to be a total newbie in this really scary book world and he knows how much a review from him means. And so I think that it was probably just an act of kindness and maybe maybe the Maine connection too, because I was born here. I still live here. That might have been it too. 

But all I know is that it was just like the most exciting thing. So I actually just had a baby five weeks ago and I think I was like maybe I had her a matter of days after he gave the blurb. And my husband and I were just like, the whole day that it had happened, we were like you're going to just go into labor today out of excitement, that’s what's going to happen! But it happened a few days later, but still, I was just like, I was like over the moon, I couldn't, I genuinely love him so much and I have been reading his stuff and listening to his lectures and I love his books. I used to think he was too scary for me but in the last few years I started reading him and I was like, oh no, actually I love this.

Mindy: I’m not even pregnant and I think if Stephen King blurbed me I'd go into labor. 

Caitlin: Right? You would just like have a baby? 

Mindy: Yeah, I would just have a baby. Well, congratulations. That's truly amazing. I agree. I've never had the opportunity to meet Stephen King but I have heard that he is extremely kind, very generous to new authors, aware of his own position and status and how he can kind of confer that onto others. So that's super cool. Last thing, why don't you let my listeners know where they can find you online and where they can find the book The Damage.

Caitlin: I think that both my Instagram and Twitter handles are just my name, Caitlin Wahrer, which is C A I T L I N   W A H R E R  My facebook, I have a Facebook page that I neglect but it does exist and I try to post every now and then. And that is also just my name. I think you can buy The Damage. just about anywhere. A lot of our local bookstores in Maine have it. So definitely if you love supporting your local bookstores, you can check Indie Bound. It's also available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Books a Million and probably other places that I'm forgetting.

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Ian Dawson On Writing Fiction From Personal Trauma

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We’re here with Ian Dawson, author of Midnight House, which released earlier this year. And part of what makes this such an interesting topic is that the story is based upon your own experience of being kidnapped when you were younger by two older teen boys. So if you would like to talk a little bit about that traumatic experience and how it ended up coming to a place where it became a novel. 

Ian: Thank you for having me on. Actually, Midnight House is the second book, the first book, The Field, which came out in 2018, that's based on my experience of being abducted. The second one is Midnight House, the follow up. So in 1993 I was out in the field behind our Redding neighborhood playing hide and seek with a friend of mine. He was hiding. I was seeking, I turned the wrong way down a gravel road, found myself being pursued by two older boys on bikes. They caught up to me and they dragged me into a clearing, terrorized me for several hours until they finally punched me in the face and let me go. So it was a very traumatic experience. A decade after it happened, I was thinking about it as a first person account of what happened and then that slowly evolved into a fictional story that was based around the actual event. And then that became The Field

The woman who read and edited the first book was like, you should make this into a series. I initially had no intention of making it a series. Then I started thinking about what I could do and then I thought of some ideas for the second book and that became Midnight House and that took about five years from initial idea to completion. And then the first book took about 15. I’m hoping the third book gets a lot shorter time from idea to completion. 

That's sort of the genesis of how this series came to be. And they’re young adult novels. I mean they're intense, they're very suspenseful. My mom had to put them down a couple times while she's reading them because especially since the first one is based on true events and the second one has things that have happened to me but it's more fictional. 

Mindy: How old were you when this happened? 

Ian: I was 13.

Mindy: Things are bad enough when you're 13, to then have to endure something like that. I can't even imagine where you ended up, diving into that place in your memories and that experience in order to write The Field. I know a lot of authors find therapy through writing and not necessarily just even as directly as writing their own lived experience, but even just for a general release from the experiences of everyday stress of real life. But when you're dealing with something that is obviously extremely personal like that, I can see it maybe going either way on any given day. And you said it took 15 years for you to really coalesce this into a final product. So was it therapeutic on some days and then maybe on other days it was just reliving a horrible thing? 

Ian: It was cathartic in a lot of ways, they never caught the two guys, so they're still out there. Because it's fiction, I basically made things go the way I wanted them to go to make a more effective story. There is the kernel of truth that was spun into a fictional narrative, but there are things in the book that didn't have to do with me. I had two other characters that were very intense, I wrote them and I had to take a break because it was like, wow, I can't believe I got that dark and went to that place. But that's one of the crazy things about writing is it allows you to take yourself to those places without actually going to those places. But you can still feel all those emotions and those feelings and that intensity. And then you hope that translates from the page to when the readers are reading, they have the same feeling. 

Mindy: Absolutely. I agree entirely. My book, The Female of the Species is a rape revenge vigilante justice book and there's actually a scene where my main character sets a pedophile on fire, burns him alive. Didn't pull any punches on that scene. And I fully expected to get some push back and I didn't. I've never had anyone say to me, you know, that was too much or you went too far and I think exactly what you're saying is what's happening. You get to do this safe exploration of an action that you might wish you could take. But you know that you cannot, for many reasons, be they moral or legal. I think it's really interesting and I think it's a really good point. It also gives you an element of control when you're writing about something that specifically happened to you in your case. In my case, just anger at the world and things that happen to people in it and kicking back on fighting back in a way that is safe. 

Ian: Absolutely. And I think that's the fun part about the writing process, especially the drafting process with The Field and with Midnight House, I would take sequences as far as outrageous as I possibly wanted to. And then I was able to pull it back. So you don't have to censor yourself in the draft because no one's going to see it. So you can just go there and then maybe you read it again, you go - well as a young adult novel, so maybe I shouldn't put that in there and let me just sort of scale that back. The first book. Some of the reviews said it was a little too violent for a young adult audience, but it's like, well, there's nothing really nonviolent about child abduction and childhood trauma, which are two things that are dealt with in the first book and then the aftermath of that is dealt with in the second book as well. These are themes that really don't have a happy essence to them. 

Mindy: Yeah, I write YA too, and I pull zero punches. I worry a little bit about push back. But to be honest with you, I'm always ready for those responses. So, for example, my third book is a gothic historical thriller set in the 1890s. It's about a teenage girl who's pregnant because her father has been abusing her. And I've had some people say, you know, why would you write a book for teens about a young girl whose father is sexually abusing her? And I'm like because that's who it happens to. This is not a shock to them. And they need to see that this happens. And those who do have to live through that experience can be aware that they are not alone. This is not some freak aberration. It is not their fault. And those that are moving in the peripherals of that situation might be able to pick up some clues and be a little more aware of things that might be going on in someone else's life. 

I really have never myself as a writer, held anything back. Now, as you're saying, your first draft is no holds barred. Full send. You go for it. And then you can dial back if you think it's necessary. I definitely have had my editors say, you know, this needs to be dealt back a little bit. Usually he's right. If I have a moral ground to stand on and it's like, no, this is here for a reason. But you know, this might be a little too much description of puking. All right. You know, I'll give on that.  You choose your battles. 

Ian: I think young adult novels, especially in 2021, have more leeway themes and the content that they can express. 

Mindy: Absolutely. Absolutely. I was a young adult librarian and I understand the arguments from both sides because the gatekeepers, they have to worry about their jobs and parents do know their own Children better than anyone else. So if a parent says - this book is not appropriate for my child - more than likely that parent is probably right because they know their child, so I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is when a parent says - this book is not appropriate for any child.You do not know all Children, so you cannot make that claim. 

Ian: Oh yeah, like the parents groups who tried to ban Harry Potter. 

Mindy: I had a few book challenges when I was in the high school library and one of them was for Harry Potter, but it wasn't like... they hadn't actually read the book, they just heard that there was witchcraft and I said - okay, here's what I want you to do, I want you to go home and I want you to try the spells and if they work then there's a problem.I am very much against sugarcoating anything. For teens, especially older teens, they're either living it or they've already seen it or they've already done it. 

Ian: Yeah, because I think especially when you're dealing with YA novels that are based in the real world, you're dealing with real world themes. I think every young adult, you know, witnessed what happened last summer. I don't think you can sugarcoat what happened with George Floyd and that whole horrible situation. Kids are very perceptive, They know what's going on. Sometimes they know more than their parents because oftentimes, parents try to shield their kids, the kids are going to find a way around whatever. Most people, even adults, if you tell them, don't do that, they're going to go do it and say, well, what's so bad about it? 

Mindy: Yeah, I just spoke at a conference a couple of weeks ago to youth services librarians. And I don't have answers for everything. Obviously if I did, I wouldn't be a novelist, but I talked about black and white thinking and how we approach sex education of course, but also drugs and how we bring it to our Children in the school system, especially public school systems and it is very black and white. This is bad, This is good, don't have sex, don't do drugs. And when the kids start to get older, they develop some obviously very natural urges, but also just a curiosity and a desire to explore different things. And I've always thought about those quote unquote good kids that are just simply growing up and maturing and all of a sudden they're like, oh no, I'm not good anymore. I want to do this. This is a bad thing. And I think it can really damage some of our kids. And then those that are already living in a world that has alcohol abuse or drug abuse or sex abuse, they're being told this is bad. And then they're like, oh, I'm bad. 

Ian: Our war on drugs in America is very odd because if you look at films from the past, like Reefer Madness how they start to teach people. And it's like yeah, the war on drugs really didn't work because you can watch Reefer Madness now and go, I know people who smoke pot, they don’t act like raving maniacs who go out and homicidal binges, just like wait a second, who was endorsing this? 

Mindy: Yeah, like literal, actual propaganda. Like we were saying earlier, fiction is a good place to do safe exploration. You don't have to smoke or have sex or or even perform violence in order to get that, I'll use the word “satisfaction” out of experiencing it in a book. 

Ian: You have fictional characters who can make bad decisions and then you can see the consequences of their bad decisions, but no one's affected in real life. Like you said, I don't think we should shy away from reality, where in the end it's like, oh yeah, and everything's okay. No, we're not in Full House. 

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Mindy: Now I think when we talk about things that make people uncomfortable when we talk about assault. I'm an athlete. I grew up on a farm. I have been in pain. I have been injured and hurt many many times in my life. I have never had anyone hurt me on purpose. And I think from what I know, from people that have experienced that there is so much trauma involved and in your case at the age of 13, a breaking of innocence in a way, I would imagine. I don't know your background, so I don't know if this was your first experience with violence.

Ian: Yes. 

Mindy: Then, yeah, I can't even imagine what it would be like to suddenly be thrust into a situation where people are hurting you on purpose and even for their own enjoyment. 

Ian: It was surreal. The experience was surreal because you're like, is this actually happening? It's very hard. I think even as an adult, it would be a surreal experience. You have no way to know what they're gonna do next or they're gonna try next or what the plan is. So that was also very scary, is the unpredictability of the situation. You know, when I got home, the police were in our driveway and I told my parents what happened, the police didn't believe me. They pulled my dad aside and they said that maybe he's just making this up. My dad was like, he's not that type of kid. If he says this happened, this happened. There really was no follow up. I think they called my mom a couple weeks later and they're like, well, we don't know, we don't know, they may have been from out of town. You know, it sticks with you. It gives you an interesting perspective on how real police sometimes can be when it comes to something like this, not to completely denigrate the police. 

My experience with the police is that the guy who comes and sings the, you know, “just say no to drugs guy,” you know, at the school and Mcgruff, the Crime Dog, you know, “take a bite out of crime.” One of my favorite shows is Law and Order, Special victims, unit. Similar situation. I'm a victim of a crime. Olivia Benson, she would have solved this, she would have figured this out. 

Mindy: You really had the veil ripped away in a lot of different ways, Not only did you very suddenly and abruptly experience violence, but you also found out that the good guys, the people that are supposed to be there to protect you and help you and the people you've been told that you can depend on might not necessarily have you as their priority.

Ian: And that's one of the reasons why in the book Daniel, who's the main character, he's abducted. Daniel's best friend, Kyle, basically takes it upon himself to figure out what happened. So the reason it took so long to write this is because the first version involved Daniel getting abducted and then Daniel's dad and a cop near retirement, were looking for him. And it was extremely boring and uninteresting because they were boring characters. And then I had Kyle out searching for him and then that made it much more interesting and exciting. I had Kyle, Daniel's best friend, pacing at home, worried about his friend and then Daniel was being held captive, it's like, well I have two passive characters... like this isn't working, they need to be doing something. So Daniel is trying to escape and then Kyle is trying to find him, okay, now they have an active goal to pursue. So that really changed how the book was in crafting the book and then it was I was able to up the stakes. 

Mindy: That's a hard thing to learn. I know, like having any type of active characters, making sure that everybody is not passive. That's when you do have to learn over time. And you said it took you 15 years then to really put together the first draft of the first book,The Field? I think that's really interesting and I think it's a really cool way, too, kind of combat that overnight success idea that I think a lot of writers look for. It exists, I've seen it happen, but it is rare. And like I myself was trying for 10 years to get an agent before I got published. My fifth book was the one that got picked up and I think it's really useful to talk to people such as yourself who put in 15 years worth of work and I'm sure took breaks, walked away, thought about it, came back revised, redrafted, how did you keep up the feeling of this is worth it? I want to keep doing this? 

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Ian: I kept coming back to it. I graduated from UC Davis By the time 2003 rolled around. I saw it on my computer and revisited it. And that's when I sort of realized this isn't very good. But the idea was there I built around it and then over time moved to L. A. And then I got my masters in screenwriting. And so I'm taking all these classes about story and character and dialogue kept going back to it. And it wasn't easy. I mean, there were times, it was just like, God, it's like - this isn't working, you know? And I'd walk away. I mean, it wasn't me consistently Every single day for 15 years going back to it. There were times and it was like, leave it for 2 to 3 months and then I'll come back to it. And there will be times when I was like, I just be bored at home and just go back to it. And then every once in a while you have the situation where things would just click OK? Yeah, I see where this is going. 

Once I gave it to a friend’s mom who was an editor and she read it, she gave me feedback and she really liked it and she gave me suggestions and notes. And so I was able to revise it from there. Novels have lots of layers to them. And sometimes it takes time for those layers to evolve and come to the surface. You could be focused on story in your first draft. And then as you go back through and you're rewriting, then your characters start to get their parts in a more clear way, and then dialogue and then description that it all sort of comes together. So, I think that's something that's important for new authors to know, is that this takes time, this isn't a one and done. Because sometimes you have to write it, walk away, come back and go, oh, I'm going to get rid of that. You have to enjoy what you're writing, even if it is something as traumatic as using a real world experience, such as mine for The Field. You have to enjoy the process. You have to enjoy the characters you're writing. If you're begrudgingly going back to your manuscript, there's a problem. You’ve got to enjoy what you're writing and you'll be doing it for the right reasons you do. You have to care about it and you have to be willing to go back to it. 

Mindy: I love what you're saying about taking those breaks. You, like you said earlier, this wasn't 15 years of you hitting your head against a brick wall. No, you can't do that. I tell people that all the time, I would take huge breaks sometimes 3,4,6 months because you cannot continually look at your own work and hate it or have other people tell you it's not good enough. In my case, I was querying agents for 10 years and you know, I just kept getting rejections rejections rejections and you can't healthfully live that way. Taking those brakes is important. 

I want to talk too, then about your publishing experience. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the route that you chose? 

Ian: When I was in the process of writing The Field, I had sent out query letters to different publishers. Most of the responses I got back were - this is not what we're looking for at this time. Back then, It was vampires and werewolves. Dystopian novels, zombies. These are the hot tickets, real world fiction really wasn't a thing at the time when I was working on this book. So I started doing research and Book Baby seemed like a good fit because I was able to find my own cover artist. I love both covers that he's done. The first book, I made the mistake of just going with an e book. That's what I started with. Then got my publicist. She was like, oh, you should probably have a paperback too, with the second book. It was cheaper to do both at once as a package, then do both separately. 

One of the reasons I went the self publishing route was I just wanted to get the book out there. That was one of the main things because you hear these stories of course, you know, Stephen King and Carrie was rejected like 87 times and he had a nail on his wall where he put all his rejection letters. And I was able to figure out a budget and that's the important thing. If you're going to do this, it is not not the cheapest way to go. But if you're able to budget and make sure that you can not go into too deep of debt and can still afford to pay your bills and your rent. Because it used to be that if you self published, that was like the scarlet letter. You know the thing - oh you self published, Oh that's not good. But it's like now, you know the book is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Walmart, Target. It's more mainstream and I think it's because YouYube and podcasting has made everybody a content creator. So self publishing is just another way of being a content creator. E books and paperbacks, they're just another avenue for creativity for people to use now. So I think it's been more legitimized over the past decade. 

People need to know if you go this route, you're not going to be on the New York Times bestseller list. That's the reality of it. Don't expect to make a bunch of money and don't expect to be on the bestseller list. But have a plan to pay yourself back. So I've been very fortunate being able to work this entire pandemic because I was able to budget, I wasn't able to do other things, I was able to squirrel money away in order to do the second book during the pandemic. 

Mindy: You don't expect to hit the bestseller list. That's true in traditional publishing as well. I have I think 12 books out, I've never hit any list, I'm certainly not rich, but I'm able to, you know, make a living at this and I supplement My and come with teaching and with substituting, doing the podcast, makes a little bit of money on the side. I do actually self publish under a pen name with two other co authors that are friends of mine and you're so right about how self publishing has changed. 

It sounds like we're about the same age and we were both entering into the publishing world right around the same time, I had the same experience yet different in some ways, I had written urban fantasy and was trying to get at that out there. And my problem was there was too much of it. These are a dime a dozen, we don't need another urban fantasy author. One day I'm going to self publish those books, but they've been under my bed for probably 15 years at this point because it just, it hasn't come back around and there are very different voice in a different genre than I write in now. So more than likely I will self publish those and self publishing like you said - It used to be, if you self publish something, it was like you were selling old meat out of the back of your van. Like people were not into that. You could not expect anything like a traditional exposure a lot of the times. People did look down their noses at that and that's just simply not sure anymore. 

I travel a lot. I go to a lot of different conferences and festivals and, I see self published authors with tables right next to traditionally published authors. People want to read what they want to read and they will be attracted to what they're attracted to. Most readers can't differentiate between a self published book and a traditionally published book. They pick it up, they look at the cover, they read the blurb on the back and they make a decision. They don't look to see who the publisher is. 

Ian: And if you're self publishing, it goes back to liking what you're writing because if you're not writing on assignment and you're doing it for yourself, you're not going to make a bunch of money and you're not gonna get the fame and fortune. You have to like what you're writing, you have to enjoy the process and enjoy what you're writing and that gets you through because it's the story that keeps you motivated. As soon as you get into the money as a motivator, I just don't think that that is an effective motivator when it comes to creativity. 

Mindy: The last thing. Why don't you let listeners know where they can find your books, The Field and Midnight House and where they can find you online. 

Ian: If you want to buy the paperback versions of either book, you can buy them on Book Baby. I have promo codes for both on my website, which is The Field YA.  Letter Y letter A (for young adult) dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at the field Y A. So you can join me there and also my website, I do blog posts. I just finished a series about story structure and I also do Writers Workshop Wednesday where I’ll profile an author and put like Youtube videos of interviews with them. 

Mindy:            Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.